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Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

arstechnica.com

121–130 of 276 posts

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the more important variable is how many subpostmasters there are. If there are millions then 700 is impressive.

As of 2023, there were 6727 subpostmasters. So about 10% committed fraud. Seems a little high - but I could believe it if the subpostmasters are the local "boss", handling cash, and are supposed to pay 'the blokes in London' who they never meet. Also, most subpostmasters had many employees - and I believe if any one of their employees was commiting fraud/stealing money, then it was the sub postmaster responsible - so…

I think this is too generous a take given the facts we know that happened.

First, the time period we’re talking about here is 16 years. You’re telling me that the post office in 16 years couldn’t figure out how 10% of their branches were having persistent problems with their counts for 16 years! What business operates this way when dealing with such large amounts of money. At a minimum even if it was legit fraud by the subpostmasters this would be an indictment of the competence of the Post Office in managing the offices.

Then there’s gems like this:

> Some subpostmasters noticed the new system reporting false shortfalls, sometimes for thousands of pounds, but the Post Office insisted that the system was robust and, when shortfalls occurred, prosecuted the subpostmasters or forced them to make good the amounts, as required by their contract.

Then an audit that was disputed and ignored:

> In 2012, as a result of pressure from campaigners and Members of Parliament, the Post Office appointed forensic accountants Second Sight to conduct an investigation into Horizon. Second Sight concluded that Horizon contained faults that could result in accounting discrepancies, but the Post Office insisted that there were no systemic problems with the software.

Finally, the most egregious thing is that even if you go back in time and are an honest player, as the convictions start happening more and more often, maybe at some point you go and ask the question “what changed in 1999 when we started prosecuting and why weren’t we catching this fraud before? Did we become better at it somehow?”

Actually it corresponds to the rollout of the system. It’s possible of course that this system added new auditing capabilities that didn’t exist before but honestly 10% is still ridiculously high.

Ultimately, the facts of the case are pretty clear this is bad faith from the Post Office (and maybe Fujitsu) top to bottom. There’s no point playing hypotheticals with good faith actors when the Post Office even had audits showing the software was buggy and the response was to dispute the audits they themselves contracted. It’s beyond the pale.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#122
How material were the post offices “overbooking” of profits by false sales registered via this bug ? How plausible is it that in-fact the internal narrative was that the post office was wildly more profitable than it was, but that they just need to crack down on this minor theft problem that they have via prosecutions while at the same time padding their figures a bit via postmasters money ?

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#123
post #105

travesty of justice doesn't begin to describe it. there must be something else wrong besides just the software? how could the justice department just blindly trust the software accounting without any other evidence.

Did you read the article? It was not justice department (aka Crown Prosecutor) prosecuting those people. In UK private prosecution for crimes is possible. Probably a major reason for this kind of bullshit goes on.

Wait, "private" meaning a non-government entity such as a corporation can prosecute someone, without any involvement of the public justice system, and send people to jail? I assume not just any private entity is empowered to do this, but still... Wow, it's bad enough here in the US that we have a private prison system, but that really takes the cake.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#124
The documentary that accompanied the recent ITV Drama "Mr Bates vs The Post Office" provides a good overview. Listening to the actual people impacted by this is heart breaking.

Someone has put it on YT, also available in the torrent bundle on PB. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHIr5fqfqKs

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#125

The Wikipedia article on Paula Vennells tells me that the Post Office prosecuted 700 subpostmasters between 1999 and 2015 [0]. That works out to about one prosecution every 8 days. I do not know the baseline rate at which postmasters commit fraud or are prosecuted, but isn't one prosecution every 8 days an awfully high number? Shouldn't the Post Office have conducted some sort of internal investigation as soon as the…

> "In 2013, Vennells hired forensic accounting firm Second Sight, headed up by Ron Warmington, to investigate the Horizon software losses. Warmington discovered the system was flawed and faulty, but Vennells was unhappy with Warmington's report and terminated their contract." Inexcusable.

Yes totally but shouldn’t it have been the prosecution that hired forensic accountants in order to, well, prosecute

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found that interesting as well. It shifts the blame away from software and a cover up by Fujitsu to more of a perception/reputation/political cover up by the Post Office. Fujitsu still has some blame, but if their statements were being modified by the post office, who's responsibility is it to review that? If I gave a written statement to a police officer, is it my responsibility to follow up and make sure they did…

To be clear it’s the Post Office that’s accused of editing Fujitsu’s statements.

But it was Fujitsu staff acting as witnesses in trials.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#127
post #123
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the article? It was not justice department (aka Crown Prosecutor) prosecuting those people. In UK private prosecution for crimes is possible. Probably a major reason for this kind of bullshit goes on.

Wait, "private" meaning a non-government entity such as a corporation can prosecute someone, without any involvement of the public justice system, and send people to jail? I assume not just any private entity is empowered to do this, but still... Wow, it's bad enough here in the US that we have a private prison system, but that really takes the cake.

Yes. Really weird.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prosecution

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/private-prosecutions

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the more important variable is how many subpostmasters there are. If there are millions then 700 is impressive.

Couldn’t find the exact number, but anywhere from 9k-12k according to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_Office_Limited#Services That’s ~8.5% of their subpostmasters that were arrested (the actual number according to Wikipedia is 900 not 700). That seems really high to me. Also I think you meant to say that 700 out of millions would be unimpressive instead of impressive right?

Those are positions. The roster is constantly churning and this spanned several years. Either way, it’s apparent the truth didn’t want to be known. I’m actually curious why these people were pursued if in theory everyone could have been. It’s like the head guy could just victimize people at will. Was he just having some sick fun or coming down on specific people for some reason.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#129

"I [Paul Patterson, co-CEO of Fujitsu's European division] am surprised that that detail was not included in the witness statements given by Fujitsu staff to the Post Office and I have seen some evidence of editing witness statements by others" How does this scandal keep getting worse and worse when the only thing to cover up is a contract for some poorly written software? At this point I'm starting to suspect some u…

> How does this scandal keep getting worse and worse when the only thing to cover up is a contract for some poorly written software?

A massive contract for the entire postal service of which a number of government managers? On top of which Fujitsu provides software for a huge swath of other UK government agencies like NHS?

So not only are they protecting a huge contract, but they were also covering up the fact that they lied and people ended up going to jail, committing suicide, etc. Aside from the criminal and civil liabilities - that would generate substantial political outrage and is the sort of thing that would shed a lot of unwanted light on the contracts, how they were selected, etc. Light nobody wanted.

This literally caused deaths - people committed suicide because of the shame and debt and utter destruction of their careers.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#130
post #3

All the PO lawyers rewriting witness statements must go to jail. All the prosecutors must go to jail for negligence and malpractice.

Odd that so often here on HN we talk about how prisons don't work, don't deter crime, don't rehabilitate... yet whenever some CEO or high level official is caught in malfeasance, we insist that "sending them to jail" is the only proper response.

I'm curious, where are you seeing this? At least four people are dead and hundreds had their lives ruined in the aftermath. I'm struggling to think of a crime with a similar number of victims that has been posted here and people have been sympathetic towards the perpetrators. There was that Hans Reiser message that was posted recently and I saw a good number of comments saying that he was an unrepentant psychopath who deserves to be in jail. And he "only" killed one person. I see people calling for reform and rehabilitation for things like drug possession, but never for crimes of this magnitude.
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