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"Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

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Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#241

Post by briancurtin »

ajross wrote: post #34
Lewisham wrote: post #15

What I find particularly disconcerting about this Van Horn story is not that he wanted to present it (which is terrible in and of itself), but that this guy is 28, went through Digg (who never struck me as a company of idiots), already presented a sexist presentation, and still appears at SXSW either by invitation of him or Path. Why would Path or SXSW allow it? Did he not practice this presentation at Path before he…

I think you need to be careful on that line of thinking. We don't want conferences censoring presenters because of reputation issues. That said, certainly in context the humor wasn't funny -- and SXSW certainly could have asked him to rework the presentation to be less needlessly controversial. I guess what I'm most confused by is why a talk titled "Adding Value as a Non-Technical No Talent Ass-Clown." got accepted i…

> We don't want conferences censoring presenters because of reputation issues.

Consider it done.

As an organizer of PyCon, this Van Horn person and any others who lack basic judgement and decency skills as well as having gained a reputation for that are not welcome to present at our conference.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#242

Post by Kadin »

skore wrote: post #80
ceol wrote: post #61

> At the startup-focused Grow Conference in 2011, his presentation included bikini-girl images from his calendar. He prefaced the slides with a laughing, "I'm sorry for being sexist. I apologize in advance," I read this a lot on reddit. Someone will preface their comment with "I'm going to hell for this" or "Apologies in advance" as if that's supposed to excuse it. I get the feeling it's because these people don't se…

I agree with you to a degree, but you simply can't put it as strong as you did. It is absolutely possible to make a joke that is understood as sexist without being one yourself. That's actually the schtick that a lot of comedians go by. Prefacing your comment with "I'm going to hell for this" is perfectly fine and in most cases, it does show that the person truly understands they're making a comment that could offend…

The way that I have always tried to explain this to other people is that it's not a matter of "being sexist" or "not being sexist" (or racist, or whatever). It's a matter of what you actually do.

Whether or not you "are sexist" on some innate level is between you and God, or your psychologist, or whatever. Nobody at work gives a damn, really. What matters are your actions, and in particular the effect they have on others and on the work environment generally. If you do and say sexist things, then there's a problem. Whether you really are or aren't sexist on some sort of deep level is, for the purposes of maintaining office harmony, irrelevant.

It's very rare to find anyone who will actually cop to being racist or sexist, and I'm willing to give people the benefit of the doubt and believe that they probably really aren't. But if someone quacks like a duck and walks like a duck often enough, they're going to get called a duck.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#243

Post by thwest »

srconstantin wrote: post #237
MBlume wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incidentally, this is how we fix it. If everyone just refuses to work with these assholes, and says so loudly, they'll... well, I'd like to say they'll pack up and leave the valley, but more likely they'll wind up concentrated in their own bro-heavy companies, which still seems like a net win for the rest of us.

Agreed. Until I see evidence that "bro companies" are more successful than normal ones, I have no qualms about shunning them.

You would be happy with a definition of success that allows for the sidelining of an entire gender?

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#244

Post by base698 »

rmc wrote: post #198
base698 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they don't, they're a fucking startup. They don't have pointy haired bosses or 900 page corporate manuals outlining when it's OK to take bathroom breaks.

Oh please, this isn't black or white. HR dept are not all like that and are beneficial for companies to have. Companies should not. think that the only options are "don't protect women" and "900 page manuals about bathroom breaks"

For a startup that has minimal chance of ever getting the capital to get off the ground it is black and white. I'm not talking about a company with 200 employees and a Series C.

Playing company can certainly bleed you dry before you ever get a chance to build something that can sell.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#245

Post by base698 »

debacle wrote: post #4

I didn't realize this was such a big problem. I don't think I've ever met a brogrammer outside of the Internet.

Irony seems lost on the whole tech community lately...

Brogrammers are funny for three reasons spanning three groups:

1) The irony that hacker culture has adopted the mores of frat culture. 2) That people think 1 is actually serious and adopt the faux culture. 3) A truly clueless group that thinks the whole gig is for real and "offensive".

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#246

Post by JanezStupar »

anichan wrote: post #119
127 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are trying to build a narrative that it's men stopping women from participating in software development. I find that problematic and harmful. Where is your proof, other than pure conjecture? My own conjecture is that women don't want to do software development because it's boring and difficult. I'm sure they could if they wanted to, they just do not. With a few notable exceptions to the rule.

It might not be the primary reason but it certainly doesn't help. Back in high school, I was really excited to join the robotics team and I really had a passion for it but I only stayed in it for a year before quitting. I was the only girl on the team and the attitude people took with me was infuriating. It felt like such a boy's club. Sure, you can just pass it off as "boys will be boys", high school boys are stupid…

Not that this applies to you, but I have seen a female programmer (co worker) invoke the chauvinist card, when in fact she was no good as programmer.

She wanted to be involved, she wanted to do cool stuff. But she didn't have the basics dialed at all and didn't have the work ethic to pick it up at an accelerated pace.

As far as I have seen the guys in hard fields (as AI and Robotics) are pretty selective bunch and will not allow someone with average skills amongst them. You have to be flat out and you have to impress them with your skills. Be a gal or a guy, but if you haven't done you're homework beforehand then you're not welcome in their club.

On the other hand, competent and driven engineers have in my opinion always been accepted as an equal.

But I have only met a handful of women willing to put in the necessary work.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#247

Post by droithomme »

option_greek wrote: post #225

It's interesting that these 'sexism' articles draw huge number of comments. Usually that would mean there are two strong sides arguing. But since they are almost always one sided, I don't see the reason for this much of 'attention'. Whats the point in arguing, when there is no one to argue with...

The same guys ranting in here about how feminist they are are also in other threads posting about how unprofessional people are who work 8 hrs and leave at 5 to go to their kid's soccer practice.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#248

Post by Flimm »

Dove wrote: post #189
pharrington wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Gender has significant effects on brain chemistry." Quantify how sex affects the brain in specific ways that effect the likelihood of developing an interesting in programming and being an effective programmer. Until we can do this, essentially saying "physiology affects your organs" is a pretty empty statement.

Quantify how sex affects the brain in specific ways that effect the likelihood of developing an interesting in programming and being an effective programmer. I'm not sure I can be quite that specific, but there are some very well-established differences in the way men and women think, and the way the respond to stress. See here: http://bible.org/seriespage/biological-basis-gender-specific... [1] . . . particularly se…

You don't have to apologize for linking to a Christian website. Last I checked, Hacker News didn't have a ban on religious links.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#249

Post by srconstantin »

vectorpush wrote: post #220

What sickens me most is that these people don't believe they're wrong. I won't generalize every individual who's ever made a stupid comment, but I can tell you anecdotally that these 'brogrammers' resent being called out for sexist remarks and turn to like-minded cliques where acceptable discourse includes long-winded rants regarding the harrowing campaign of persecution set upon them by the likes of 'liberal whitekn…

I went to school with these guys. I don't have a lot of sympathy for them, but I do have a little. They did find a place in the sun. Right now their skills match what the market wants. So, like everyone else, they're going to remake the workplace in their own image. Working there sounds like it would be acutely unpleasant, but from what I understand, it's basically the same as a big chunk of finance culture. When tech stops being faddish, those people will go back to finance (which is so demonized anyway that Mother Jones doesn't report on what it's like to be a woman in finance).

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#250

Post by unreal37 »

cyborg wrote: post #201

I'm the shirtless guy in the top-left photo. I feel pretty bummed that something we did to parody the ridiculous 'brogrammer' movement was used in this context : (

It's a ridiculous article leaping to ridiculous conclusions. Don't be too bummed.
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