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"Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

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Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#141

Post by MBlume »

ghurlman wrote: post #118
lkrubner wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misread that paragraph. He does not seem to be writing only about programmers, but about everyone that a startup might need to hire. Read this again: "Shapiro, who has blogged in the past about sexism in the tech industry, notes that "it is a widely understood truth that the single biggest challenge to a successful startup is attracting the right people. To literally handicap yourself by 50 percent is ins…

And not just women either. It's ridiculous to assume that 100% of the best/qualified programmers would want to work at a place like that.

Incidentally, this is how we fix it. If everyone just refuses to work with these assholes, and says so loudly, they'll... well, I'd like to say they'll pack up and leave the valley, but more likely they'll wind up concentrated in their own bro-heavy companies, which still seems like a net win for the rest of us.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#143

Post by zeroonetwothree »

sycr wrote: post #9

Only one minor point from me: the Dan Shapiro quote is a bit off. > To literally handicap yourself by 50 percent is insanity. From the figures I've seen, the handicap is in the 25-30 percent range based on the percentage of women in the industry. But I like his line of thinking. It's an old libertarian argument too: racism and sexism will be rooted out the market by those smart enough to take advantage of the inconsi…

Only certain types of men would be attracted to this type of culture. It's very possible the handicap is more like 75%.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#145

Post by jmduke »

ghurlman wrote: post #118
lkrubner wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misread that paragraph. He does not seem to be writing only about programmers, but about everyone that a startup might need to hire. Read this again: "Shapiro, who has blogged in the past about sexism in the tech industry, notes that "it is a widely understood truth that the single biggest challenge to a successful startup is attracting the right people. To literally handicap yourself by 50 percent is ins…

And not just women either. It's ridiculous to assume that 100% of the best/qualified programmers would want to work at a place like that.

The same can be said of the opposite end of the geek cultural spectrum, though -- the stereotypical Mountain Dew & video games contingent.

I interviewed a startup where one of the co-founders openly mocked me for wearing a tie; when he asked what my interests were (sports and music, amongst other things), I got criticized for not liking "Starcraft and normal programmer stuff."

The issue isn't one specific subset of tech industry culture; it's a result of the startup scene shifting HR roles to technical people who often don't have the soft skills necessary to deal with such tasks effectively.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#146

Post by pharrington »

Produce wrote: post #120
pharrington wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Gender has significant effects on brain chemistry." Quantify how sex affects the brain in specific ways that effect the likelihood of developing an interesting in programming and being an effective programmer. Until we can do this, essentially saying "physiology affects your organs" is a pretty empty statement.

That's like saying that until we can quantify how far Paris is from London, "Paris is far from London" is a pretty empty statement. Pretty sure that people understood that locations can be some distance away from each other before they could quantify exactly how much distance.

Huh? If someone knows neither where Paris nor London are, then yes, saying "Paris is far from London" indeed isn't useful. Is the distance between them a two hour drive? Do they lie half-way around the world from each other?

Except in pathological cases, we barely know how physiology affects large scale behavior, let alone how particular brain functions influence how one's interests develop and how they excel at activities, especially in the midst of the confounding environmental factors such as upbringing, schooling, and culture. We don't know where Paris or London are on the map.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#147

Post by MBlume »

ajross wrote: post #34
Lewisham wrote: post #15

What I find particularly disconcerting about this Van Horn story is not that he wanted to present it (which is terrible in and of itself), but that this guy is 28, went through Digg (who never struck me as a company of idiots), already presented a sexist presentation, and still appears at SXSW either by invitation of him or Path. Why would Path or SXSW allow it? Did he not practice this presentation at Path before he…

I think you need to be careful on that line of thinking. We don't want conferences censoring presenters because of reputation issues. That said, certainly in context the humor wasn't funny -- and SXSW certainly could have asked him to rework the presentation to be less needlessly controversial. I guess what I'm most confused by is why a talk titled "Adding Value as a Non-Technical No Talent Ass-Clown." got accepted i…

> I think you need to be careful on that line of thinking. We don't want conferences censoring presenters because of reputation issues.

Why on earth not? Part of ensuring cooperation on prisoner's dilemmas is punishment. It should be bad for your career to act like an asshole and make us all look bad.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#148

Post by gte910h »

crazygringo wrote: post #111
fab13n wrote: post #18

> To literally handicap yourself by 50 percent is insanity. This is very PC, but BS nonetheless. At the stage when people can be profitably hired by start-ups, the male/female ratio is nowhere near 50% among technical candidates. I'm not saying that frat culture isn't harmful, nor would I dare to guess why women are underrepresented among development professionals; but defending a thesis with such grossly false asser…

There is one theory which says that men genetically tend to be more "outliers" while women genetically tend more towards the average. Thus there are far more men than women who are wildly rich and successful, but also far more men than women who are failures or in jail. If we're talking about start-ups who need to hire from the top 10% of programmers, who might be from the top 0.5% of the population in terms of logic…

What a horrible idea if you need that mystical 1:200 soul to pull it off.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#149

Post by gte910h »

ajross wrote: post #34
Lewisham wrote: post #15

What I find particularly disconcerting about this Van Horn story is not that he wanted to present it (which is terrible in and of itself), but that this guy is 28, went through Digg (who never struck me as a company of idiots), already presented a sexist presentation, and still appears at SXSW either by invitation of him or Path. Why would Path or SXSW allow it? Did he not practice this presentation at Path before he…

I think you need to be careful on that line of thinking. We don't want conferences censoring presenters because of reputation issues. That said, certainly in context the humor wasn't funny -- and SXSW certainly could have asked him to rework the presentation to be less needlessly controversial. I guess what I'm most confused by is why a talk titled "Adding Value as a Non-Technical No Talent Ass-Clown." got accepted i…

>We don't want conferences censoring presenters because of reputation issues

Yes you do. You don't want a heavy editorial hand, but you want there to BE a hand. Wanting absolutely no judgement is a great way to let total crap in.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#150

Post by chc »

batista wrote: post #129
chc wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your sarcasm hides your point a little too well, I think. What are you trying to say here? That we shouldn't criticize him or his company when he behaves poorly? That we should criticize him, but couch it in soothing excuses? That his presentation really was acceptable?

The third. That his presentation really was acceptable, and people are making issues out of nothing --just to prove that the far-right should not have a monopoly on prudes and squares.

In isolation, I might be inclined to agree with you. But taken in the context of programming culture as a whole, it was simply inappropriate. Go look at http://programmersbeingdicks.tumblr.com and then read the story and tell me it still doesn't sound problematic to you.

Women really are underrepresented in programming in the US, so we don't even have the refuge of saying it's unprofessional but harmless. This talk isn't a huge problem in itself, but it is one tentacle of a monstrous beast of a problem.

And I'm not saying we should crucify Matt or even give him the stink eye, but I do think we should make it clear that we're not OK with that kind of talk.

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