I don't think this is really a Silicon Valley problem so much as it's a society problem in general. We technophiles are just much more inclined to bitch about it on the internet.
"Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem
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Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem
#72Well you still have job adverts from big boys like twitter saying 'responsible enjoyment of beer' as a prerequisite. https://twitter.com/jobs/positions?jvi=ooE7VfwO,Job If that's not appealing to the frat boy crowd then I don't know what is. Not to mention the fact that a lot of people don't actually drink ( I know hard to believe! ), or have a life that doesn't involve drinking all the time. As someone who's been th…
It's a "plus", not a prerequisite. I really don't see a problem with that one? I used to work at Dean Kamen's DEKA (the place that made the Luke arm and the Segway). It was very un-frat boy crowd. Some Fridays were declared "Beer Friday" and at 4 PM everyone would shuffle into a room and have a couple beers and converse about their projects and ideas.
Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would dare to guess that women are underrepresented among developers PRECISELY because of this culture and the underlying assumptions and attitudes. Gender is irrelevant to logical analysis, which is the foundation of programming. If you don't have parity in your pool of candidates, there's a cause, and it's probably social. Nursing and teaching used to be men's work. Women weren't thought to be capable of it. Too…
> "Gender is irrelevant to logical analysis" Brain chemistry is relevant to logical analysis. Gender has significant effects on brain chemistry. There are also social problems that contribute. But the gender ratio would not be 50-50 even in a completely egalitarian society. Women like my wife [0] are rare, partly because of "brogrammers" chasing them off, but also because a smaller proportion of women are interested…
Do you mean sex or gender? (Remember, words are assigned gender but cannot have sex.)
I'm not going to try to argue the brain chemistry thing^, but the social/culture aspect is a large problem and (as you bring up) can also partially explain why there are few women as well as men choosing to live effeminately in programming or technical jobs.
^Edit for clarity: Because I think its a totally loaded statement and don't want to even start down that path, not because I agree and assume its fact.
Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
Of course they don't, they're a fucking startup. They don't have pointy haired bosses or 900 page corporate manuals outlining when it's OK to take bathroom breaks.
That's _entirely_ different from "If you do anything that will make anyone of {these protected classes} uncomfortable by saying/doing something relating to {their protected class} membership, we could be sued for hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars, and you will be disciplined". HR lawsuits are a _huge_ risk, _especially_ for a small company, it seems like a no brainer for people smart enough to run an inter…
I agree with you, but set aside the risk of a lawsuit. Creating an office environment where some people feel uncomfortable or bullied is just wrong. It's also bad for business.
Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem
#75This problem starts early, too - in my undergrad institution, many of the lectures and programming assignments taught OOP with examples employing beer and women-as-objects-of-seduction. The lecturers - not just TAs, but also adjuncts - would go out drinking with guys in the class from their old frats while ( I was alerted ) speculating as to how I got into Algorithms by sleeping with the professor. TAs discussed with…
>... discussed with guy students which of the female profs were 'bang-able' and which 'needed to be laid' so someone would 'have to take one for the team.' That's just fratboy behaviour. It doesn't have anything to do with the class or the department itself. It goes the other way often enough as well.
This was by a grad TA (a school employee) in a public forum. The one female professor who expressed any concern was told basically to stop. If it was just students, that would be one thing. This kid continued to be employed by the department.
Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem
#76> To literally handicap yourself by 50 percent is insanity. This is very PC, but BS nonetheless. At the stage when people can be profitably hired by start-ups, the male/female ratio is nowhere near 50% among technical candidates. I'm not saying that frat culture isn't harmful, nor would I dare to guess why women are underrepresented among development professionals; but defending a thesis with such grossly false asser…
I think you're missing the point, which is: this attitude, which alienates 50% of humans, handicaps you, and ALL OF US in the development community, by 50%.
Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem
#77> To literally handicap yourself by 50 percent is insanity. This is very PC, but BS nonetheless. At the stage when people can be profitably hired by start-ups, the male/female ratio is nowhere near 50% among technical candidates. I'm not saying that frat culture isn't harmful, nor would I dare to guess why women are underrepresented among development professionals; but defending a thesis with such grossly false asser…
I think you misread that paragraph. He does not seem to be writing only about programmers, but about everyone that a startup might need to hire. Read this again:
"Shapiro, who has blogged in the past about sexism in the tech industry, notes that "it is a widely understood truth that the single biggest challenge to a successful startup is attracting the right people. To literally handicap yourself by 50 percent is insanity." "
His point, as I understand it, is that if a startup has a bro culture, then women won't want to work there. That includes women in marketing, women in sales, women in HR, women as project managers, etc.
And yes, it is a serious issue. Even if you accept the (highly questionable) thesis that only men like to program, are you willing to argue that a growing company will never need women in marketing, sales, HR, management, etc?
In that light, he is quite right when he says: "To literally handicap yourself by 50 percent is insanity."
Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem
#78What I find particularly disconcerting about this Van Horn story is not that he wanted to present it (which is terrible in and of itself), but that this guy is 28, went through Digg (who never struck me as a company of idiots), already presented a sexist presentation, and still appears at SXSW either by invitation of him or Path. Why would Path or SXSW allow it? Did he not practice this presentation at Path before he…
>What I find particularly disconcerting about this Van Horn story is not that it happened (which is terrible in and of itself), but that this guy is 28, went through Digg (who never struck me as a company of idiots), already presented a sexist presentation, and still appears at SXSW either by invitation of him or Path. Why would Path or SXSW allow it? Did he not practice this presentation at Path before heading out? Was this thought to be acceptable by everyone at that company?
Yes, let's ostracize him. Hell, let's burn him at the stake.
/s
Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem
#79> To literally handicap yourself by 50 percent is insanity. This is very PC, but BS nonetheless. At the stage when people can be profitably hired by start-ups, the male/female ratio is nowhere near 50% among technical candidates. I'm not saying that frat culture isn't harmful, nor would I dare to guess why women are underrepresented among development professionals; but defending a thesis with such grossly false asser…
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Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem
#80> At the startup-focused Grow Conference in 2011, his presentation included bikini-girl images from his calendar. He prefaced the slides with a laughing, "I'm sorry for being sexist. I apologize in advance," I read this a lot on reddit. Someone will preface their comment with "I'm going to hell for this" or "Apologies in advance" as if that's supposed to excuse it. I get the feeling it's because these people don't se…
I agree with you to a degree, but you simply can't put it as strong as you did.
It is absolutely possible to make a joke that is understood as sexist without being one yourself. That's actually the schtick that a lot of comedians go by.
Prefacing your comment with "I'm going to hell for this" is perfectly fine and in most cases, it does show that the person truly understands they're making a comment that could offend others.
Whether or not that person really does appreciate the extent to which their comment can be hurtful and whether or not they really are sexist (to whatever degree) is a different matter altogether. Filtering your output because of others and your true conviction are two different things and you're not doing anybody a favor by forcing a causality here.