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"Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

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Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#211

Post by ZephyrP »

simpleH wrote: post #209
ZephyrP wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since we're being 'realistic', the opportunity cost to a business for a disparity in talent in HR barely registers. Relatively minor differences in skill between programmers can mean millions of dollars to a business.

Even if you assume that HR talent differences don't matter, you can't make the same assumption about marketing, PR, and other personnel with much needed soft-skills. So what you're left with in a single-minded company of brogrammers and soft-bros is effectively a brain drain that leads to the kinds of flubs the author describes that drive customers and sponsors away.

Yep, the kind of flubs like Path and PayPal.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#212

Post by ojbyrne »

Two things:

First of all, this isn't programmer culture, it's executive culture. MVH got to the position he is in because his world view matchs the world view of executives and VCs in the industry.

Second, I'm amazed that people can be critical of 'bro' culture in this article, but when Peter Theil's course material appeared here, people were supportive of it, even though it was essentially an intellectual argument that this is the type of culture you want to promote at a startup.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#213

Post by Stwerp »

Dove wrote: post #189
pharrington wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Gender has significant effects on brain chemistry." Quantify how sex affects the brain in specific ways that effect the likelihood of developing an interesting in programming and being an effective programmer. Until we can do this, essentially saying "physiology affects your organs" is a pretty empty statement.

Quantify how sex affects the brain in specific ways that effect the likelihood of developing an interesting in programming and being an effective programmer. I'm not sure I can be quite that specific, but there are some very well-established differences in the way men and women think, and the way the respond to stress. See here: http://bible.org/seriespage/biological-basis-gender-specific... [1] . . . particularly se…

> the christian academic community seems to be about the only one in which one can have a serious conversation about innate differences between the genders without getting immediately taken out and shot.

(Sorry, I don't mean to harp on this too much, but after hanging out around a sociologist with a pet peeve, it has sadly rubbed off on me.)

This may be because in the academic community "gender" has an entirely different meaning that "sex." Sex (and the sex differences) relate to biological differences, male and female. Gender (and gender differences) relate to society, culture, and how one acts or the roles of the masculine and feminine _within that society_. So of course "gender differences" are not going to turn up a lot in the academic world since a self-identifying masculine male should have the same biology as a self-identifying feminine male. Googling for "sex brain difference" or something like that may help (in google scholar or a journal database, probably not plain google).

One other data point is that it is worth investigating women in technology in other societies. According to this (old) study: http://www.frauen.inf.ethz.ch/stats/international_stat_fraue... women are in the majority for a few asian countries.

Just some thoughts.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#214

Post by Kadin »

xal wrote: post #82
dsr_ wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would dare to guess that women are underrepresented among developers PRECISELY because of this culture and the underlying assumptions and attitudes. Gender is irrelevant to logical analysis, which is the foundation of programming. If you don't have parity in your pool of candidates, there's a cause, and it's probably social. Nursing and teaching used to be men's work. Women weren't thought to be capable of it. Too…

I think that's debatable based on geography. You point to nurses and teaching being precedents but that was only true in certain geographies. The low interest in of women in programming is a global phenomenon. It's important that we discuss the actual cause here if we want any hope in solving this. Let me throw out another one that I find has less weaknesses then the usual arguments: There is a tremendous lack of fem…

> The low interest in of women in programming is a global phenomenon.

I'm not sure that's completely true. I've been told that the gender imbalance in CompSci programs is less severe in India than it is in the U.S., for instance, relative to the overall gender imbalance in their workforce.

But in general it wouldn't surprise me if there is higher worldwide correlation among companies in software development than in other industries, because software development is so new, and because so many of the dominant companies are concentrated in the U.S. Other industries, e.g. healthcare, operate in very different environments from country to country, so you would expect them to be less highly correlated.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#215

Post by secoif »

asciilifeform wrote: post #182
rada wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What, if anything, there is to be gained by encouraging women to join men in wasting their lives away in the IT salt mines, is another question entirely. You make more than your peers and your boss. It takes a couple days to land multiple job offers, in any economy, all you have to do is stop saying no. The work is intellectually gratifying and the results are immediately visible. You are largely immune from corporat…

> How can you be stuck in the salt mines... > The work is intellectually gratifying Most likely, this is where we differ. The only programming work that I find truly gratifying happens to be my 100%-non-monetizable life project. ( http://www.loper-os.org ) Everything else is just a way to pay the bills. That is to say, salt mine labor. In order to eat and pay rent, I burn my prime waking hours working on things other…

Sounds like you desperately need a new profession. If you don't do it for love, you're wasting your life.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#216

Post by 127 »

Kadin wrote: post #199
127 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are trying to build a narrative that it's men stopping women from participating in software development. I find that problematic and harmful. Where is your proof, other than pure conjecture? My own conjecture is that women don't want to do software development because it's boring and difficult. I'm sure they could if they wanted to, they just do not. With a few notable exceptions to the rule.

> My own conjecture is that women don't want to do software development because it's boring and difficult. Why would women find this more of a problem then men do? You're just replacing one unproven assertion with another, the latter that women are more sensitive to "boring and difficult" jobs than men are. I can't think of any compelling reason or even any evidence for that, given the number of "boring and difficult…

>Why would women find this more of a problem then men do?

I did not say this. What I said that women have more of a choice not to have a career and still succeed in raising a family.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#217

Post by kstenerud »

buff-a wrote: post #39
RandallBrown wrote: post #17

The brogrammer meme is JUST A JOKE! It's the very opposite of a stereotypical programmer. It's simply taking a stereotype, flipping it around, and poking fun at it. Instead of being disgusted by jokes about nudie calendars, do something about it. Go give your own presentation. Recruit more women at your company. Turn the boys club into an everyone club. I'm not saying that everything people are doing is okay, I'm jus…

This [1] was a joke. This [2] was for real. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Qi_AAqi0RZM#%21 [2] http://www.readwriteweb.com/enterprise/2012/03/how-casual-sexism-put-sqoot-in.php

#2 was not intended to be for real. It was intended as a joke poking fun at the brogrammer thing, but it backfired because too many people thought they were serious. That's what happens when you step over the line while attempting humor.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#218

Post by ebbv »

rmc wrote: post #188
ebbv wrote: post #30

Not that fucking Siri canard again. It was debunked repeatedly. The reason Planned Parenthood wasn't being found by the person's query is they were looking for "abortion provider" or something along those lines and Planned Parenthood wasn't listing itself under those terms. It had NOTHING to do with sexism on the part of the developers. Shame on the author.

I don't know of the specifics, bit I would have also assumed that since abortion is a slightly controversial issue now, that Apple blocked it. They don't want porn on app store, so I assumed that they blocked abortion providers aswell. The other reason I find this "siri sexism" theory hard to believe is how the OP phrased the complaint. "... the male programmers didnt think to include abortion ...". Does the OP reall…

They didn't block it. The actual problem was identified and it was that the person throwing a fit was searching for terms that Planned Parenthood didn't list themselves under.

There was no action on Apple's part, deliberate or otherwise, that caused it.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#219

Post by simpleH »

ZephyrP wrote: post #211
simpleH wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you assume that HR talent differences don't matter, you can't make the same assumption about marketing, PR, and other personnel with much needed soft-skills. So what you're left with in a single-minded company of brogrammers and soft-bros is effectively a brain drain that leads to the kinds of flubs the author describes that drive customers and sponsors away.

Yep, the kind of flubs like Path and PayPal.

You're mistaking flubs for flops. A flub is a botched opportunity. A flop is a total failure.

Startups really can't afford to let a series of flubs (results of a badly formed team making bad decisions) turn their whole endeavor into a flop.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#220

Post by vectorpush »

What sickens me most is that these people don't believe they're wrong. I won't generalize every individual who's ever made a stupid comment, but I can tell you anecdotally that these 'brogrammers' resent being called out for sexist remarks and turn to like-minded cliques where acceptable discourse includes long-winded rants regarding the harrowing campaign of persecution set upon them by the likes of 'liberal whiteknights' and 'feminazi bitches'.

These guys aren't actively conspiring to exclude women from tech (in fact, they tend to jump at any superficial opportunity to demonstrate the opposite), but they're angry about being called sexist and they really don't want to capitulate to the suggestion that their behavior merits serious adjustment (which is not surprising considering the correlation of ego with 'brogrammer').

The surplus of cash and minor acclaim only emboldens their resolve; there is a subconscious belief that their financial success has conferred the wisdom to authoritatively determine the appropriate bounds of sexual commentary for a professional setting and anyone who can't deal with sexist bullshit can just get the fuck outta tech because the startup is king and sensitive women (and men) just can't handle the heat of 60 hour weeks spent reclined in front of a widescreen LCD.

These chauvinistic kids really need a wake up call, but frankly, I fear the money is just too good for them to ever really care.

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