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"Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

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Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#151

Post by enjo »

ghurlman wrote: post #118
lkrubner wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misread that paragraph. He does not seem to be writing only about programmers, but about everyone that a startup might need to hire. Read this again: "Shapiro, who has blogged in the past about sexism in the tech industry, notes that "it is a widely understood truth that the single biggest challenge to a successful startup is attracting the right people. To literally handicap yourself by 50 percent is ins…

And not just women either. It's ridiculous to assume that 100% of the best/qualified programmers would want to work at a place like that.

I wouldn't. That's not just white-knighting either. You can't have a culture like that and be seriously committed to making amazing products. That's a culture that chases the outwardly flashy, not the inwardly brilliant.

I only work on products that espouse the latter.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#152

Post by slantyyz »

ceol wrote: post #99
skore wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you to a degree, but you simply can't put it as strong as you did. It is absolutely possible to make a joke that is understood as sexist without being one yourself. That's actually the schtick that a lot of comedians go by. Prefacing your comment with "I'm going to hell for this" is perfectly fine and in most cases, it does show that the person truly understands they're making a comment that could offend…

> That's actually the schtick that a lot of comedians go by. Would you agree there's a difference between a comedian telling a sexist joke and a respected speaker at a tech conference telling a sexist joke? > Prefacing your comment with "I'm going to hell for this" is perfectly fine and in most cases, it does show that the person truly understands they're making a comment that could offend others. However, they didn'…

>> It does nothing but alienate women.

In addition, there are personal/professional costs too:

* It does nothing but create the perception that you're not a professional worth listening to.

* It also does nothing to make a non-brogrammer want to hire you (or the company you work for) in the future.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#153

Post by mrgn »

batista wrote: post #129
chc wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your sarcasm hides your point a little too well, I think. What are you trying to say here? That we shouldn't criticize him or his company when he behaves poorly? That we should criticize him, but couch it in soothing excuses? That his presentation really was acceptable?

The third. That his presentation really was acceptable, and people are making issues out of nothing --just to prove that the far-right should not have a monopoly on prudes and squares.

I disagree. I have a pretty thick skin and was one of the many people who walked out of this SXSW talk early. It was low on useful content which made it easier to leave; but the repeated mentions of 'hot chicks' 'gang bang approach' 'nudie mags' and 'babes' just grossed me out.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#154

Post by ghurlman »

jmduke wrote: post #145
ghurlman wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And not just women either. It's ridiculous to assume that 100% of the best/qualified programmers would want to work at a place like that.

The same can be said of the opposite end of the geek cultural spectrum, though -- the stereotypical Mountain Dew & video games contingent. I interviewed a startup where one of the co-founders openly mocked me for wearing a tie; when he asked what my interests were (sports and music, amongst other things), I got criticized for not liking "Starcraft and normal programmer stuff." The issue isn't one specific subset of t…

True indeed; othering is othering, be it over-bro-ing or ignorant defense of "nerd culture".

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#156

Post by MBlume »

droithomme wrote: post #130

All right, let me get this straight. So this guy gives a speech criticizing gang bang interviews, and people walked out because they don't like the term "gang bang". Or is it because they are so addicted to gang bang interviews that they aren't willing to give them up and are offended by anyone criticizing the practice. I also despise gang bang interviews. There is no advantage to them and they should be stopped. I a…

I really hope you're just trolling, I hope no one here is actually this obtuse.

But just in case...

Referring to them as "gang bang interviews": * implies an equivalence between having several people take it in turns to overpower and rape you, and having several people take it in turns to ask you questions * brings up the topic of rape in a context where people are expected to laugh * brings up the topic of rape for no good reason

Can you really not see how this would create an unpleasant experience for someone (ie most women) who's been taught since age 12 to fear the possibility of being raped at any moment? Can you not see how this would create a potentially triggering experience, one which would wipe out any benefit from attending the conference, for an assault survivor?

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#157

Post by gte910h »

eli_awry wrote: post #22

This problem starts early, too - in my undergrad institution, many of the lectures and programming assignments taught OOP with examples employing beer and women-as-objects-of-seduction. The lecturers - not just TAs, but also adjuncts - would go out drinking with guys in the class from their old frats while ( I was alerted ) speculating as to how I got into Algorithms by sleeping with the professor. TAs discussed with…

Where is this? I went to college at a place where while there are 50/50 in the freshmen class, by graduation it's more 75/25 men women (I'm talking the whole school).

I have never seen this sort of behavior and was TA as well as a student. What campus did you see this at?

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#158

Post by jquery »

buff-a wrote: post #39
RandallBrown wrote: post #17

The brogrammer meme is JUST A JOKE! It's the very opposite of a stereotypical programmer. It's simply taking a stereotype, flipping it around, and poking fun at it. Instead of being disgusted by jokes about nudie calendars, do something about it. Go give your own presentation. Recruit more women at your company. Turn the boys club into an everyone club. I'm not saying that everything people are doing is okay, I'm jus…

This [1] was a joke. This [2] was for real. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Qi_AAqi0RZM#%21 [2] http://www.readwriteweb.com/enterprise/2012/03/how-casual-sexism-put-sqoot-in.php

I saw that Twilio brogramming thing live. While it was intended as a joke, and riotously funny at the time, clearly some attendees (or maybe just Youtubers watching) thought it was something to emulate.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#159

Post by rada »

asciilifeform wrote: post #117
moldbug wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd dare to be wrong: http://134.173.180.115/berger/pdf/Halpern2007.SciSexDif.Pub....

Do you see any evidence that the rank-and-file software developer lives on the far-right-edge of the bell curve? Software developers are largely male for the same reason that construction crews and prisoners are - rather than the reason Nobel Prize winners in Physics are. What, if anything, there is to be gained by encouraging women to join men in wasting their lives away in the IT salt mines, is another question ent…

What, if anything, there is to be gained by encouraging women to join men in wasting their lives away in the IT salt mines, is another question entirely.

You make more than your peers and your boss. It takes a couple days to land multiple job offers, in any economy, all you have to do is stop saying no. The work is intellectually gratifying and the results are immediately visible. You are largely immune from corporate politics. The list goes on and on.

How can you be stuck in the salt mines when it's been the programmers' market for so long? I am genuinely interested - I hear this sentiment every once in a while and it always baffles me. I've done web development for 10 years (NYC/Midwest) and it's been nothing but gravy. Some lumps, yes, but gravy nonetheless.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#160

Post by anigbrowl »

lotharbot wrote: post #56
dsr_ wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would dare to guess that women are underrepresented among developers PRECISELY because of this culture and the underlying assumptions and attitudes. Gender is irrelevant to logical analysis, which is the foundation of programming. If you don't have parity in your pool of candidates, there's a cause, and it's probably social. Nursing and teaching used to be men's work. Women weren't thought to be capable of it. Too…

> "Gender is irrelevant to logical analysis" Brain chemistry is relevant to logical analysis. Gender has significant effects on brain chemistry. There are also social problems that contribute. But the gender ratio would not be 50-50 even in a completely egalitarian society. Women like my wife [0] are rare, partly because of "brogrammers" chasing them off, but also because a smaller proportion of women are interested…

Brain chemistry is relevant to logical analysis. Gender has significant effects on brain chemistry.

Law involves a great deal of logical analysis and there doesn't seem to be any shortage of capable women lawyers, despite a good deal of institutional discrimination in the past.

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