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Minimum Wage Clock

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Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#151

Post by gruez »

kimbernator wrote: post #118
npoc wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of most US states, I think it's fair to say that the minimum wage is moot. As you say, hardly anyone would consider working for less than that anyway. But why take away their freedom to do so?

No freedoms are being taken away, save for those of businesses that would like to increase their margins by paying their workers less. These fictional people who would love to work for less than $7.25/hr are free to do gig work that nets them less. They are also free to panhandle on the side of freeway off-ramps, which I imagine many would prefer to the concept of being paid $5/hour to take orders from a person who l…

>No freedoms are being taken away [...]

>These fictional people who would love to work for less than $7.25/hr are free to do gig work that nets them less. They are also free to panhandle on the side of freeway off-ramps,

Being unable to work in a employment relationship, and forced to do "gig work" and "panhandle" doesn't count as "freedoms are being taken away"?

>The removal of the minimum wage would simply be a gift to employers taken from the pockets of actual workers. Businesses don't just pay the minimum wage out of the kindness of their hearts; to pay that wage is code for "I would pay you less if I could."

This is a case of fabricated options[1]. The possible outcomes aren't: a) worker makes $5/hr and b) worker gets makes $10/hr (the minimum wage). Sure, in some cases the employer might grumble but ultimately stump up the extra $5/hr, but it's also possible that the employer lets the worker worker go instead, automating his job or having his work shipped overseas instead.

[1] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/gNodQGNoPDjztasbh/lies-damn-...

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#152

Post by oh_sigh »

beaeglebeached wrote: post #105
oh_sigh wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What society reduced it's rich people and increased the average richness? When I think of the concept my mind jumps to stalin eliminating the kulaks, or mao and the cultural revolution, or pol pot, which ended up helping destroy their society, not make everyone wealthier.

When the rich get rich via redistribution of value rather than generation of value, average richness rises after those rich are deposed.

What examples are there of that?

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#153

Post by lotsofpulp »

doesnt_know wrote: post #83
maerF0x0 wrote: post #13

If we find this appalling, let's stop consuming the products of those who we feel are "overpaid" and visit the website, businessplace, or other endeavors of those we feel are "underpaid". Tim Cook gets paid a lot (and so do many AAPL employees), but I can't help but admit that my last 3 laptops I bought with my own cash were MBP, and not a system76 or framework. And I'm more likely to visit costco than a farmer's mar…

Isn't putting this onto the consumer a little bit of a cop out? This enormous global system of powerful corporations and nation states crafted this system because it was in their best interest. Feels sort of tone deaf to say "well, you got what you deserved, you created this sytem by buying this specific computer and cheaper food!" Night/farmer's markets are quite popular here in NZ but we haven't toppled global inqu…

> Isn't putting this onto the consumer a little bit of a cop out?

It is the other way around, consumers wanting to keep consuming and feeling good about it while blaming someone else.

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#154

Post by jdietrich »

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #26
slibhb wrote: post #23

People like to talk about inequality but absolute poverty seems like a more important target. Satya Nadella having more money than me doesn't make my life worse; I'm more concerned about the availability of jobs, food, housing, etc. That said, CEO salary does strike me as strange. Who needs 8 million per year + stock? I'd think more CEOs would voluntarily take a pay cut.

The Spirit Level [1] makes a good argument for why more equal societies benefit everyone within them. At the very least, I think it's fair to say that "Satya Nadella having more money than me doesn't make my life worse" is not definitively true. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spirit_Level_(book)

The "Re-analyses and alleged failures to replicate" section of that Wikipedia article is really rather important - the idea that inequality causes problems independent of poverty relies on a lot of questionable assumptions and analyses.

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#155

Post by npoc »

LesZedCB wrote: post #95
npoc wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder where are these people. Do you know any? Would you be "happy" to work for less than minimum wage? I'd be very happy to work for less than the minimum wage if that's all my work was worth and the alternative was no job.. > Sure, gommunism is when minimum wage. Most of Europe is in fact gommunist today, while its bourgeoisie gets richer and richer by the year. The root cause of this wealth disparity is the f…

printing money obviously can't be the "root" cause because it's not an independent variable - it's the product of a social institution implementing policy which was decided on. so, who decided? why? to benefit whom? i suppose therein lies the root cause.

A policy decided on through a collusion between government and the private central banks, which benefits both of them and steals from the population through the Cantillon effect and the stealth real wage reduction.

Workers are getting pay cuts while thinking they are getting pay rises, and they then blame the shops who have to ask for increasing numbers of the the devaluing units of currency in exchange for the same item.

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#156

Post by madsbuch »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #13

If we find this appalling, let's stop consuming the products of those who we feel are "overpaid" and visit the website, businessplace, or other endeavors of those we feel are "underpaid". Tim Cook gets paid a lot (and so do many AAPL employees), but I can't help but admit that my last 3 laptops I bought with my own cash were MBP, and not a system76 or framework. And I'm more likely to visit costco than a farmer's mar…

This is a straw man by people who are afraid of fair regulation and market dynamics.

Myself I am from Denmark. Here we don't have a minimum wage, but we do have a strong union culture. This ensures power dynamics on the labor market ensuring that everybody gets a fair wage.

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#157

Post by latentcall »

meowtimemania wrote: post #52
maerF0x0 wrote: post #13

If we find this appalling, let's stop consuming the products of those who we feel are "overpaid" and visit the website, businessplace, or other endeavors of those we feel are "underpaid". Tim Cook gets paid a lot (and so do many AAPL employees), but I can't help but admit that my last 3 laptops I bought with my own cash were MBP, and not a system76 or framework. And I'm more likely to visit costco than a farmer's mar…

Ironically, Costco treats its employees much better than most any locally owned shop.

Right, also keep in mind Costco can afford to treat their employees well. A small mom and pop with the owner(s) and maybe one or two clerks may not be able to in the same way.

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#158

Post by Philpax »

renewiltord wrote: post #137
NegativeLatency wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's rich people, and then there's the ultra rich people. It just doesn't seem possible to become a billionaire through ethical means.

James Patterson just wrote books people like and he’s a billionaire. Are murder stories unethical or something?

Does he write his own books, though? [0] [1] [2]

It's his name on the front of the book, but he is not necessarily the primary author. That sounds a little unethical to me.

[0] https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/books/380231/James-P...

[1] https://theconversation.com/why-you-dont-need-to-write-much-...

[2] https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/featu...

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#159

Post by mega_dingus »

plasmatix wrote: post #144
bena wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I low key hate that comic. It makes a false equivalency. Recognizing a car could be safer isn't contradicted by owning one. If anything, ownership should give you more insight into the material problems of the item in question. Likewise, society is just everything. So suggesting improvements isn't contradictory. However, there is some hypocrisy in lambasting the maker of the very luxury goods you purchase for exploit…

I think you’re misunderstanding the comic. I’ve always taken it to be exactly what you’re saying, thus the “I am very intelligent”. Because he’s not.

The linked article explains exactly this

Re: Minimum Wage Clock

#160

Post by DonnyV »

slibhb wrote: post #23

People like to talk about inequality but absolute poverty seems like a more important target. Satya Nadella having more money than me doesn't make my life worse; I'm more concerned about the availability of jobs, food, housing, etc. That said, CEO salary does strike me as strange. Who needs 8 million per year + stock? I'd think more CEOs would voluntarily take a pay cut.

Reducing the wealth of the ultra rich is not just about resource allocation. Its also about how much power a single person should have within the community they live in. With that kind of money people can buy off regulators, politicians, law enforcement, whole towns, financial intuitions , etc. You really don't want a person or group of people to have that much power over a community.
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