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Australia to ban engineered stone

abc.net.au

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Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#311

Post by stubish »

zlg_codes wrote: post #238
unclekev wrote: post #102

I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? All the people who were cutting engineered sto…

Good point. Government talks big about regulation and how much they care, but when examined, look! They bend right over for business.

The opposite. The trade unions pushed this through.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#312

Post by dantiberian »

unclekev wrote: post #102

I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? All the people who were cutting engineered sto…

From the report (page 56):

Exposure to RCS from engineered stone causes silicosis typified by a faster onset and more rapid progression than that caused by RCS [Respirable crystalline silica] from other sources, including natural stone.

When engineered stone is processed, the dust generated contains higher levels of RCS, and that RCS has different physical and chemical properties that likely contribute to the more rapid and severe disease. There is also evidence to suggest that other components of engineered stone may contribute to the toxic effects of engineered stone dust, either alone or by exacerbating the effects of RCS.

...

The increased risks posed by RCS from engineered stone, increased rate of silicosis diagnosis amongst engineered stone workers, and the faster and more severe disease progression amongst this group, combined with a multi-faceted failure of this industry to comply with the model WHS laws means that continued work with engineered stone poses an unacceptable risk to workers. The use of all engineered stone should be prohibited.

https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/202...

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#313

Post by xxs »

amluto wrote: post #32
geetee wrote: post #4

I don't think I've ever seen a tradesperson wearing PPE. Recent example: our neighbor had some stonework done, and these guys were just casually hanging out in clouds of cement and stone dust.

PPE is the wrong solution here. Tools that don’t produce dust are the right solution. Wet tile saws and waterjets can cut stone (and engineered stone) with essentially no dust. An angle grinder with a dust shroud and HEPA filtered extractor (total cost starts around $400) can do the same thing a regular angle grinder does but with a lot less dust. And one really can work all day in a pouch-style N95 mask. They don’t…

>pouch-style N95 mask

No profession experience, yet the pouch style I found both uncomfortable at higher temperatures and unreliable. So for a normally hobby/around-the-house work I use only half mask respirator Pretty much, it requires proper shaving to ensure it actually does something.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#314

Post by obrix »

quickthrower2 wrote: post #205
TylerE wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s been banned in new residential construction since 1978.

What about faucets?

Lead is used in brass for corrosion resistance even in handling drinkable water. It does not markedly leach into the water and increases the usability of the plumbing from less than 5 years to more than 30 years.

Gas welding the material results in lead fumes. There is a big quarrel about the usage of lead in water pipe connector brass parts going on in the EU.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#315

Post by newaccount74 »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #271
rob74 wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the customer also has a lot of power. They can decide to hire a company (if available of course) that encourages/forces their workers to use PPE, even if it's a little more expensive (and maybe also takes longer) instead of just going for the lowest bidder...

How would a customer verify that? They are supposed to also monitor the worksite? And be knowledgeable about consistent work and the type of PPE it requires?

It's not really that hard to understand PPE requirements.

Is it dusty? Wear a mask.

Is it loud? Hearing protection.

And everyone should wear shoes with steel caps.

If you see someone with a bandana over their mouth in sandals you know they are unsafe. They know it too. This is not something that is difficult to understand.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#316

Post by Doxin »

schneems wrote: post #153
oooyay wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tooling and PPE are part of the problem but not all of it. People who clean up job sites are also getting sick: > "We actually not only saw people who were directly cutting and grinding the stone, but we saw people who were just sweeping up the work site after the stone had been cut," says Rose. "They were exposed to the silica particles that were suspended in the air just with housekeeping duties." So, basically eve…

The problem with “always wear a p100” is that they’re not comfortable in an unventilated uncooled house which is where a lot of construction happens. If everyone is wearing one you also need to take more breaks which eats into time to do the job. The industry is set up so you only get paid for doing the job. If doing it unsafely means doing it faster or being more comfortable then a lot of small time contractors will…

For comfort you'd probably want to get a positive air pressure mask. Those things are wildly underrated. Can even stick on a volatiles filter when relevant.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#317

Post by Qwertious »

stubish wrote: post #149
pjscott wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One standard remedy for situations like this is to mandate that, if an employee gets silicosis for any reason , their employer must pay them some large sum of money. Regardless of whose fault it was. If cutting corners saves money, then corners will inevitably be cut - but if it’s made to be more expensive than being careful, suddenly it makes good business sense to get serious about workplace safety.

This is unworkable. You can't penalize a company because their employees did not follow the safety guidelines they promised they would or are legally obliged to follow. Especially when a large number of workers are self employed. You can send them bankrupt with a penalty, but then have to support the disabled worker with social security and health care.

>This is unworkable. You can't penalize a company because their employees did not follow the safety guidelines they promised they would or are legally obliged to follow.

If companies can't be penalized for that, then they'll pull a walmart and "forbid" their workers from taking shortcuts and then set quotas that are impossible to complete without said shortcuts.

If workers don't follow safety guidelines once, there's a simple solution: warning/firing them. If workers don't follow safety guidelines constantly, then the company is complicit in it.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#318

Post by extraduder_ire »

paxys wrote: post #215
stephen_g wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s incredible how bad tradies are at PPE. When my solar panels were being installed on my house, the electrician was happily about to drill through asbestos cement eave lining before I stopped him, and at least made him put on a disposable P2 respirator mask I had lying around. But he still released asbestos fibres into the air and the ceiling cavity where his colleagues were working, and will have got it on his cl…

Sadly that's just the culture. I've seen apprentices laughed at by old timers and called pussies because they were taking basic precautions and wearing PPE. And then to fit in they themselves took on that same attitude.

I think I permanently trained myself out of that by looking at some arc welding when I was about 8 years old. Looked pretty, and brighter than anything I had seen before. (sun, lightning, lasers, etc) Didn't seem to hurt or cause any immediate issues.

Realized how wrong I was when I woke up the next morning, felt like I had gritty sand in my eyes for two or three days.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#319

Post by lostlogin »

defrost wrote: post #133
unclekev wrote: post #102

I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? All the people who were cutting engineered sto…

> All the people who were cutting engineered stone with unsafe methods, are now just going to be cutting granite and other natural stone with the same safety practices that led to this being banned. > I really don't get it. Before engineered stone took off like crazy people were already cutting natural stone, working as stone masons, working at BGC quarries (stone mining, crushing, grading, delivery). After engineere…

> For whatever reason ( . . . insert theory . . . ) engineered stone manufacture and cutting is much much much worse wrt health issues.

My theory: engineered stone allowed us plebs to get stone benches. Previously we had stainless, Formica and other bench tops that were less toxic to work with.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#320

Post by cyberax »

yeeeloit wrote: post #180
defrost wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All the people who were cutting engineered stone with unsafe methods, are now just going to be cutting granite and other natural stone with the same safety practices that led to this being banned. > I really don't get it. Before engineered stone took off like crazy people were already cutting natural stone, working as stone masons, working at BGC quarries (stone mining, crushing, grading, delivery). After engineere…

Exactly, silica is not the problem. Silica is everywhere, we don't wear PPE to drive down a dirt road. It's the silica plus the adhesive additives combined in your lungs that does the damage.

> Exactly, silica is not the problem

It is. The air-driven rock drills were called "widowmakers" by miners because of silicosis that quickly reaped its operators.

> Silica is everywhere, we don't wear PPE to drive down a dirt road.

Silica down the road is not in the form of fine dust.

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