Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Australia to ban engineered stone

abc.net.au

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 542 posts

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#111

Post by TylerE »

legitster wrote: post #40
geetee wrote: post #4

I don't think I've ever seen a tradesperson wearing PPE. Recent example: our neighbor had some stonework done, and these guys were just casually hanging out in clouds of cement and stone dust.

Honestly, a huge innovation in the quality and comfort of respirators would be a massive safety revolution. If we can make earbuds comfortable enough so that people can wear them 8 hours a day, there's got to be something to do for breathing.

The 3M Auras m, especially the 9210, are really good. That’s what I’ve been wearing for the past 3 years. Comfortable, excellent filtering (I suspect they’d actually qualify as N99, but no one actually buys those. Also like how they come individually plastic wrapped (and folded flat). Makes it really easy to keep a couple in the car car and what not.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#112

Post by an_aparallel »

this is so dumb...

quarry workers probably get silicosis...from cutting natural stone? MDF is still legal - and is horrible material *most building materials are toxic

wtf has been achieved here? Seems like someone has buddies in industry and has lobbied for a ban on offshore produced building material to keep "honest local industries afloat"...ffs.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#113

Post by bobsmooth »

chris_wot wrote: post #90
Gigachad wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no safe level of alcohol consumption, there is no safe level of car exhaust fumes, etc.

There are safe levels of alcohol consumption.

It's poison, there is no safe level.

"No level of alcohol consumption is safe when it comes to human health, according to a WHO statement released in January, 2023."

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanrhe/article/PIIS2665-9...

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#114

Post by TylerE »

ioseph wrote: post #77
zaphirplane wrote: post #31

No arguing against the ban I have to say the alternatives from the article are significantly more expensive, not durable or silly (concrete) Anyone had luck with one of the alternatives * Natural stone * Porcelain * Laminate * Tiles * Concrete * Wood/Timber

I have a 1940s house with solid timber benchtops, yes they take a little more care (no hot pans) but from what I hear stone counters stain easily anyway. The nice thing about wood is you can just sand it back and refinish and it will look amazing again. Large slabs are pretty expensive these days so when installing a kitchen downstairs we went with finger jointed timber, was cheaper than stone and slightly more expen…

My parents have stone. I hate it. Very noisy in a high pitched unpleasant way.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#115

Post by WillPostForFood »

Astraco wrote: post #79
zaphirplane wrote: post #31

No arguing against the ban I have to say the alternatives from the article are significantly more expensive, not durable or silly (concrete) Anyone had luck with one of the alternatives * Natural stone * Porcelain * Laminate * Tiles * Concrete * Wood/Timber

Granite countertops are cheaper, more durable and have better thermal resistance than artificial stone ones.

It is a little more mixed than that. Granite is generally cheaper and has better heat resistance. Granite is porous, so it stains and needs sealing every year or two. Quartz/artificial takes less maintenance, is a little stronger, so it is more scratch resistant.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#116

Post by j-bos »

saxman001 wrote: post #13
geetee wrote: post #4

I don't think I've ever seen a tradesperson wearing PPE. Recent example: our neighbor had some stonework done, and these guys were just casually hanging out in clouds of cement and stone dust.

Wearing PPE is miserable. The respiratory masks that reliably keep silica out of your lungs are painful. My job involves working with silica powders and I can really only handle about 20-30 minutes decked out in my bunny suit, respirator, over eye goggles, gloves and disposable sleeves before I need to take a break for air. This is in a climate controlled environment with a minimally physical set of tasks. Having wor…

My dude, wearing PPE sucks. I've been there, in a hot, humid, subtropical, sunny climate, full respirator, mask and overalls. Endless in and out to hydrate and get frsh air.

But the fact is, sufficient dust, of any material is dangerous. I have a friend who was hospitalized with a literal hole in his lung. Partially collapsed lung. He's under 35.

Hard work is hard, it's often uncomfortable, let's not pretend magic bullets are here. If anything they are, PPE is miraculous in what it protects against.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#117

Post by amluto »

TylerE wrote: post #108
amluto wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve watched a contractor cut holes in a countertop in the field. They did it wet. I’d still wear safety glasses if I were doing this, but IIRC there was no dust. I’ve never seen someone cut a countertop on site. They do it in a shop. (Why didn’t Australia instead ban all countertop cutting in shops that doesn’t use dustless tools?) Hmm, I just looked it up. Home Depot sells the tool for under $30.

Just because you can’t see the dust doesn’t mean there isn’t dust. Often it’s the tiniest particles that are the most dangerous because they can attach to the walls of the lungs but are too small to then actually be dislodged by, a say, coughing.

I haven’t looked for lab data, but certainly what appears to happen is that the swarf ends up suspended in the water. Some water will spray, which will be a bit messy, but mostly it will be in droplets that don’t stay in the air. (And presumably aren’t going to get to one’s lungs either.) And the majority of the swarf just stays in a puddle.

This is in contrast to cutting dry, which causes all the swarf to fly into the air.

So the exposure isn’t zero, but it’s low. It would be interesting to see if it registers on a particle counter (Plantower, etc).

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#118

Post by pjscott »

jiggawatts wrote: post #2

This was caused by an alarming rise of silicosis cases in young “tradies” (Aussie slang for trade workers). The government and various professional bodies tried to enforce the use of PPE when working with this material, but there has been a housing construction boom going on and a lot of corners were cut (hah!), resulting in young immigrant workers especially turning up in hospitals with lung cancer. No matter how ca…

One standard remedy for situations like this is to mandate that, if an employee gets silicosis for any reason, their employer must pay them some large sum of money. Regardless of whose fault it was. If cutting corners saves money, then corners will inevitably be cut - but if it’s made to be more expensive than being careful, suddenly it makes good business sense to get serious about workplace safety.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#119

Post by betaby »

Incipient wrote: post #89
dylan604 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if this was an american decision, i'd suggest the natural stone lobby was better than the engineered stone lobby.

We really don't have the same overt paid lobbying here (aka bribery) that you have in the US. Don't get me wrong our politicians are just as morally bankrupt and self-serving, but it doesn't happen at the same coordinated scale.

World-know news payment extortion from Meta?

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#120

Post by zdragnar »

lathiat wrote: post #104
JoshTriplett wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Or more precisely, ban the net effect (putting the dust into the air), and then people can find the best alternative given that constraint, whether it's a better manufacturing/installation process that doesn't put the dust into the air, or a product that doesn't produce the dust in the first place.

This was considered but the problem is it’s very difficult to enforce in practice The product is generally installed onsite in a fast paced building industry that doesn’t have time/room to do it properly and often no supervision (1-2 often independent trades doing the installs) to ensure the appropriate measures are actually taken. The risk has already been known for a while and in practice still lots of “YOLO” onsit…

So hold the people intentionally violating safety practices accountable.

This reeks of unnecessary heavy-handedness that hurts everyone. The specified natural alternative (granite) is nearly half silica and is a known health hazard.

All this regulation does is allow sloppy work that'll kill people a little more slowly.

Post reply on HN