Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Australia to ban engineered stone

abc.net.au

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 542 posts

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#81

Post by BonoboIO »

oooyay wrote: post #48
amluto wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PPE is the wrong solution here. Tools that don’t produce dust are the right solution. Wet tile saws and waterjets can cut stone (and engineered stone) with essentially no dust. An angle grinder with a dust shroud and HEPA filtered extractor (total cost starts around $400) can do the same thing a regular angle grinder does but with a lot less dust. And one really can work all day in a pouch-style N95 mask. They don’t…

> PPE is the wrong solution here. Tools that don’t produce dust are the right solution. "Essentially no dust" is not "no dust". There are no safe levels of silica that can be introduced to your lungs. > And one really can work all day in a pouch-style N95 mask N95 is basically the bare minimum in terms of filters. In my shop I have a shop vac with a tornado tumbler that attaches to tools for fine wood dust and a full…

They even have „sun glasses“. Definitely cool. I think PPE is a must, when you work with abrasive tools.

If you ask yourself „should I wear safety equipment“ the answer is always yes.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#83

Post by niccl »

archontes wrote: post #20
umvi wrote: post #17

Seems like you should ban the manufacturing methods, not the end product. Like, if I invent a way to safely manufacture and do on-site adjustments of engineered stone, shouldn't I be rewarded by the market for it? The material itself is not harmful, just breathing the dust of it is, which can be said of a lot of things in a common household.

Do you think that folks will install it on site without cutting it?

I've just had two engineered stone counter tops installed. In both cases (different companies) the fitters came and made a template from thick card of the exact size for the top. the tops arrived and fit precisely. One had to have holes for cut in, but I didn't hang around to see if they fitter used PPE

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#84

Post by tjmc »

sellmesoap wrote: post #67
insaneirish wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as countertops go, field cuts are rather uncommon. Laser templating works well. Holes on the other hand tend to be done in the field. But, people don't wear PPE even though it's simple and easy to do.

Due to lack of tech work I've been installing stone countertops. I can confirm we cut on site around half the time, microplastics galore (you can smell the polyester in the air).

Would love to know your opinion on this then - is there any way onsite cutting could be eliminated, semi or fully automated with wet cutting? Or is the onus always on the contractor to use PPE?

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#85

Post by robocat »

legitster wrote: post #35
ezzaf wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Studies looking into the issue have found non silica compounds cause issues too, and its the engineering process rather than the silica that causes the problem. This is why they haven't created an exemption for low-silica products. > "It's not just about the silica, it's something specific about the engineered stone products that's causing such a significant issue in workers fabricating these products." https://www.a…

From the link: > "What we found ... was that the natural products we had in the panel of products that we assessed actually caused the biggest inflammatory response," Professor Zosky said. I'm not sure why they are saying it's the engineering. Their own study says that natural stone products are worse than the engineered products! It's probably there's a larger number of cases of silicosis from engineered products de…

Weirdly enough, The article hints that the legislation won't ban natural stone.

  What alternatives are there to engineered stone?
  * Natural stone

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#86

Post by dboreham »

legitster wrote: post #18

> Earlier this year workplace ministers tasked Safe Work Australia, a government WHS agency, with investigating how a ban could work and whether low-silica engineered stone could remain on the market safely. > The report found there was no safe level of silica, concluding: "The use of all engineered stone should be prohibited." I don't understand this logic. Silica is also present in natural stone too! If they are no…

Possibly the issue is more to do with the lower cost of the engineered material?

Like, when tobacco cost a megabuck per oz in Queen Elizabeth times people smoked a pipe once in a while and in the context of their high exposure to fireplace smoke it was no big deal. Fast forward to when cigarettes cost 10c/pack and the marketing guys are selling them to 8 year olds...now it's a huge health problem.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#87

Post by consumer451 »

fmajid wrote: post #61
jdietrich wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PPE is the last resort when other mitigation measures are inadequate, but positive-pressure respirators (either powered air-purifying or supplied-air) are really very comfortable. No face seal is required and you've got a constant flow of cool air. Spray painters, asbestos workers, media blasters and many welders will wear one for the majority of their working hours. Engineered stone is undoubtedly more hazardous tha…

Didn't coal miners also use to get silicosis?

Pneumoconiosis, aka black lung is something different.

> Coal — There is a prevalent opinion that coal miners do not suffer from silicosis or tuberculosis. But coal mining may produce silicosis when the associated rock has a sufficiently high silica content [0]

> Analyses of speciments of rock drilled from various sites on Manhattan Island showed that the free silica content ranged from zero to 84 per cent. In the case of dry jackhammer drilling, 50 per cent of the silica particles were less than three to four microns in size, while with the water Leyner (wet) drill, 50 per cent of the particles were less than 1-8 microns in diameter. Of the 208 drillers, blasters and excavators examined, 42 per cent showed early, and 15 per cent well-developed silicosis. Evidence of tuberculosis, including both active and inactive cases, was present in nine per cent of the total number.

I believe miners of many types began suffering from silicosis when powered jackhammer drills were first introduced. It wasn't until people started dying that water began being piped to to the tip of the drill.

This document is old, but very interesting. Many of the questions being asked in this thread can be answered here. The various industries where silicosis can occur are outlined beginning on page 47.

[0] "SILICOSIS AND ITS PREVENTION" (1946) https://digirepo.nlm.nih.gov/ext/dw/37721440R/PDF/37721440R....

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#88

Post by buryat »

dylan604 wrote: post #71
legitster wrote: post #18

> Earlier this year workplace ministers tasked Safe Work Australia, a government WHS agency, with investigating how a ban could work and whether low-silica engineered stone could remain on the market safely. > The report found there was no safe level of silica, concluding: "The use of all engineered stone should be prohibited." I don't understand this logic. Silica is also present in natural stone too! If they are no…

if this was an american decision, i'd suggest the natural stone lobby was better than the engineered stone lobby.

it does sound like mining companies protecting their business

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#89

Post by Incipient »

dylan604 wrote: post #71
legitster wrote: post #18

> Earlier this year workplace ministers tasked Safe Work Australia, a government WHS agency, with investigating how a ban could work and whether low-silica engineered stone could remain on the market safely. > The report found there was no safe level of silica, concluding: "The use of all engineered stone should be prohibited." I don't understand this logic. Silica is also present in natural stone too! If they are no…

if this was an american decision, i'd suggest the natural stone lobby was better than the engineered stone lobby.

We really don't have the same overt paid lobbying here (aka bribery) that you have in the US.

Don't get me wrong our politicians are just as morally bankrupt and self-serving, but it doesn't happen at the same coordinated scale.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#90

Post by chris_wot »

Gigachad wrote: post #66
oooyay wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> PPE is the wrong solution here. Tools that don’t produce dust are the right solution. "Essentially no dust" is not "no dust". There are no safe levels of silica that can be introduced to your lungs. > And one really can work all day in a pouch-style N95 mask N95 is basically the bare minimum in terms of filters. In my shop I have a shop vac with a tornado tumbler that attaches to tools for fine wood dust and a full…

There is no safe level of alcohol consumption, there is no safe level of car exhaust fumes, etc.

There are safe levels of alcohol consumption.
Post reply on HN