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Australia to ban engineered stone

abc.net.au

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Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#51

Post by Aloha »

kjs3 wrote: post #44
Aloha wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You get it - when someone is hand to mouth, their theoretical market freedoms are pretty limited, particularly in this field when everyone else is using the same materials.

To be fair, someone who wants 'the market' to determine when people stop dying from a provably dangerous product doesn't give a steaming crap about the poors impacted.

I think within reason, people should be able to chose their own destiny - we shouldn't lie to ourselves however and assign people agency in cases where they have none - most employees have little agency to exercise in the relationship with their boss.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#52

Post by standardUser »

gimmeThaBeet wrote: post #39

I recall seeing stuff about this in California, but I think that was more about people polishing the big slabs, this seems more about masons installing them? But really terrible stuff, I know that's who the article focuses on, but it's just intrinsically, like mostly guys in their late 20s and 30s. If they have families, the kids are gonna be young, and then their lungs are just shot. I don't remember if there was a…

> I recall seeing stuff about this in California

People love to talk shit about California (I don't mean OP, but generally, and increasingly), but that state gets right as much as it gets wrong. And at least it fucking does something. It's expected to pass strict regulations tomorrow on the type of stonecutting that Australia is banning. That adds up because Australia is a country that likes to ban things and America is not. That holds true even in California, which is far more pro-commerce than people seem to pretend.

But the bigger point is that outside of Australia and California, a small but tragic number of working people will continue to die a rough and premature death because most states, countries, counties, whatever jurisdiction, don't have the basic competency and clear-sightedness to pass laws that cause no one true harm but save literal human lives.

https://www.kqed.org/news/11969381/california-regulators-to-...

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#53

Post by linsomniac »

insaneirish wrote: post #27
archontes wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that folks will install it on site without cutting it?

As far as countertops go, field cuts are rather uncommon. Laser templating works well. Holes on the other hand tend to be done in the field. But, people don't wear PPE even though it's simple and easy to do.

~6 years ago I got new countertops, and while they did the bulk of the cutting in their facility, they did do a few cuts in my front yard, creating a huge cloud of dust. The main parts of the counter arrived ready to assemble, but I think they cut a spanning piece for behind the stove, spanning the counters on either side.

My 8yo son came out to see what was going on, looked at the workers doing the cut without masks, and said "silicosis ain't no joke" and went back inside. I've taught him well.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#54

Post by hattmall »

legitster wrote: post #35
ezzaf wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Studies looking into the issue have found non silica compounds cause issues too, and its the engineering process rather than the silica that causes the problem. This is why they haven't created an exemption for low-silica products. > "It's not just about the silica, it's something specific about the engineered stone products that's causing such a significant issue in workers fabricating these products." https://www.a…

From the link: > "What we found ... was that the natural products we had in the panel of products that we assessed actually caused the biggest inflammatory response," Professor Zosky said. I'm not sure why they are saying it's the engineering. Their own study says that natural stone products are worse than the engineered products! It's probably there's a larger number of cases of silicosis from engineered products de…

Is it not because the manufactured stone requires manufacturing. So a lot more exposure to the raw materials during the manufacturing process?

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#55

Post by oooyay »

saxman0001 wrote: post #29
insaneirish wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wearing PPE is miserable. The respiratory masks that reliably keep silica out of your lungs are painful. I completely disagree. Is it less comfortable than not wearing a mask? For sure. Do I consider it a burden to wear a P100 respirator when dealing with silica? Nope.

How many hours a day do you typically spend wearing your respirator? Have you had a professional fit test to see whether your respirator is making an adequate seal? Many folks wear these things far too loosely to pass a basic fitment test. How many hours a day do you spend moving objects that weight >20lbs while wearing your respirator? How often do you work on days >30C while decked out in your respirator? Do you ke…

If you want a recommendation: https://parcilsafety.com/products/pd100-full-face-respirator

Filter list: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0128/4037/0235/files/Full_...

It has large outter seals which are great if you wear glasses and it's extremely light. The inner seal is also pretty thick and I have shortish facial hair that doesn't impact the seal at all.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#56

Post by bitbang »

zaphirplane wrote: post #31

No arguing against the ban I have to say the alternatives from the article are significantly more expensive, not durable or silly (concrete) Anyone had luck with one of the alternatives * Natural stone * Porcelain * Laminate * Tiles * Concrete * Wood/Timber

Concrete isn't silly at all. (Google it) I actually prefer it to most of the other options.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#57

Post by CaptainHardcore »

linsomniac wrote: post #53
insaneirish wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as countertops go, field cuts are rather uncommon. Laser templating works well. Holes on the other hand tend to be done in the field. But, people don't wear PPE even though it's simple and easy to do.

~6 years ago I got new countertops, and while they did the bulk of the cutting in their facility, they did do a few cuts in my front yard, creating a huge cloud of dust. The main parts of the counter arrived ready to assemble, but I think they cut a spanning piece for behind the stove, spanning the counters on either side. My 8yo son came out to see what was going on, looked at the workers doing the cut without masks…

All the workers clapped and one of them cried.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#58

Post by jdietrich »

saxman001 wrote: post #13
geetee wrote: post #4

I don't think I've ever seen a tradesperson wearing PPE. Recent example: our neighbor had some stonework done, and these guys were just casually hanging out in clouds of cement and stone dust.

Wearing PPE is miserable. The respiratory masks that reliably keep silica out of your lungs are painful. My job involves working with silica powders and I can really only handle about 20-30 minutes decked out in my bunny suit, respirator, over eye goggles, gloves and disposable sleeves before I need to take a break for air. This is in a climate controlled environment with a minimally physical set of tasks. Having wor…

PPE is the last resort when other mitigation measures are inadequate, but positive-pressure respirators (either powered air-purifying or supplied-air) are really very comfortable. No face seal is required and you've got a constant flow of cool air. Spray painters, asbestos workers, media blasters and many welders will wear one for the majority of their working hours.

Engineered stone is undoubtedly more hazardous than natural stone, but (as the researchers quoted in this article suggest) there is no safe level of exposure to respirable crystalline silica. The problem of silicosis long pre-dates the advent of engineered stone and will remain even if the product is banned. If I were working with stone - engineered or natural - I'd want a respirator unless I was absolutely confident in the mitigation measures in place.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#59

Post by xcv123 »

Freedom2 wrote: post #36
gonzo41 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you get raised reading only economic and game theory texts? Real people in the real world don't have as much agency as you'd like to think. Sometimes you take the job that you can get. See Amazon warehouse workers.

A lot of good feedback in this thread that is making me reconsider my opinion, but to answer this specifically, no. I didn't have much of a thought on economic theory until I started frequenting this message board and I was enamored by the liberties offered by the free market as spouted by highly rated HN posters, as well as essays and long-form articles that have been highly upvoted on this site.

In Bangladesh they required government passing and enforcing new laws to end lead contamination of turmeric powder which had been ongoing for years and poisoned the entire population. Government responsibility is not government overreach. If the government merely warned the population and left it to the free market, the sellers would continue to sell contaminated turmeric while claiming it is free of contaminants. If left purely to the free market, eventually consumers would put an end to lead contamination, by creating a new government that enforces laws against lead contamination.

https://web.archive.org/web/20231204184119/https://www.econo...

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#60

Post by insaneirish »

legitster wrote: post #37
archontes wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that folks will install it on site without cutting it?

If you mandate that it has to be ordered to fit from the production facility, then yeah it's probably safer.

> If you mandate that it has to be ordered to fit from the production facility, then yeah it's probably safer.

A mandate isn't really necessary. Everyone involved has every incentive to cut stone in a shop rather than in the field.

The problem is people don't wear PPE. Guess what? Everyone already has a mandate to wear PPE.

Sometimes you can't fix stupid.

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