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Australia to ban engineered stone

abc.net.au

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Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#221

Post by rconti »

standardUser wrote: post #52
gimmeThaBeet wrote: post #39

I recall seeing stuff about this in California, but I think that was more about people polishing the big slabs, this seems more about masons installing them? But really terrible stuff, I know that's who the article focuses on, but it's just intrinsically, like mostly guys in their late 20s and 30s. If they have families, the kids are gonna be young, and then their lungs are just shot. I don't remember if there was a…

> I recall seeing stuff about this in California People love to talk shit about California (I don't mean OP, but generally, and increasingly), but that state gets right as much as it gets wrong. And at least it fucking does something. It's expected to pass strict regulations tomorrow on the type of stonecutting that Australia is banning. That adds up because Australia is a country that likes to ban things and America…

Wow. I live in CA, and am starting on a remodel where I fully intended on using this stuff, having no idea it was harmful. In fact, I just assumed it must be better than digging/mining/cutting 'real' granite slabs and that this stuff would be both cheaper AND more responsible.

Regulations do more than regulate/ban things, they raise awareness. Just reading about the Australia ban had me thinking "I'll have to see what else we like to use instead" before I even got to your comment about the California ban.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#222

Post by defrost »

AdamJacobMuller wrote: post #164
defrost wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All the people who were cutting engineered stone with unsafe methods, are now just going to be cutting granite and other natural stone with the same safety practices that led to this being banned. > I really don't get it. Before engineered stone took off like crazy people were already cutting natural stone, working as stone masons, working at BGC quarries (stone mining, crushing, grading, delivery). After engineere…

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Cute but lacking depth.

If you feel that way, take it up with:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/resp.14625

https://www.osha.gov/sites/default/files/publications/OSHA37...

and the tradies getting physical reactions in their lungs from the dust.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#223

Post by rconti »

insaneirish wrote: post #159
insaneirish wrote: post #24

[flagged]

I'm not sure why I'm getting these downvotes, but my point is that concrete is far more of a silica containing building material than engineered stone but for which there is probably far less political gumption to meaningfully regulate.

Probably because the ban is likely better thought out than a flippant comment that, I guess, assumes the powerful anti-silica lobby (?) is much stronger than the poor downtrodden anti-concrete lobby (??).

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#225

Post by irjustin »

jackvalentine wrote: post #198
irjustin wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed - I'm surprised the Aussie version of OSHA isn't the one taking care of this problem. I feel really bad for the early workers who didn't know getting affected. That's downright terrible. But I imagine there's a method of safely working with this material. And, there's ALWAYS going to be hazardous materials - you can't ban them all. You raise the standard of the people working with materials. This feels like -…

> But I imagine there's a method of safely working with this material. You can read the report if you'd like, basically they weighed up a bunch of options. https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/202... > NOW, if it's like asbestos and the end consumer can get affected then I 100% agree with this ruling. It is - the final fitment is usually on site with dry cuts made contaminating the area it's insta…

thanks I appreciate the link. Looks like the one we're interested in this thread is Option 4 (also 5b to cover other things like granite). They did a pretty good laying out the details.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#226

Post by drivebyadvice »

stephen_g wrote: post #178
unclekev wrote: post #102

I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? All the people who were cutting engineered sto…

It’s incredible how bad tradies are at PPE. When my solar panels were being installed on my house, the electrician was happily about to drill through asbestos cement eave lining before I stopped him, and at least made him put on a disposable P2 respirator mask I had lying around. But he still released asbestos fibres into the air and the ceiling cavity where his colleagues were working, and will have got it on his cl…

The talk in the trade is that asbestos is way overblown and it mostly affected people installing it in ships for the Navy. They worked in tight spaces with lots of asbestos in the air, lining the ship and its pipes with it, all day every day.

I don't know how true that is but I've heard the same exact story from several different contractors. I do know that getting those linoleum/asbestos floor tiles ripped up will cost you a lot to get somebody to do it for you, but there aren't any real safety precautions you need to take since it isn't getting airborne, it's basically just pure profit for the contractor.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#227

Post by amanaplanacanal »

yeeeloit wrote: post #183
mattmaroon wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, fair, and tragic, but is the only solution banning it entirely? What about requiring PPE? There are a whole lot of jobs that are safe when done properly and unsafe, when not done properly. It seems as if they are punishing an entire industry for not knowing what they didn’t know.

Cutting stone and keeping 100% of it out of your lungs is nearly impossible, especially when you are working in uncontrolled environments like someone's kitchen that is being renovated. The PPE available for this sort of work is just not up to the job.

I thought all you had to do was use water with the saw and wear a respirator. Am I misinformed?

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#228

Post by piperswe »

paxys wrote: post #215
stephen_g wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s incredible how bad tradies are at PPE. When my solar panels were being installed on my house, the electrician was happily about to drill through asbestos cement eave lining before I stopped him, and at least made him put on a disposable P2 respirator mask I had lying around. But he still released asbestos fibres into the air and the ceiling cavity where his colleagues were working, and will have got it on his cl…

Sadly that's just the culture. I've seen apprentices laughed at by old timers and called pussies because they were taking basic precautions and wearing PPE. And then to fit in they themselves took on that same attitude.

It hurts me when I see my tradie trainee husband (at school to be an auto mechanic) skip PPE in places he really shouldn't (e.g. latex gloves when handling carcinogenic fluids). I don't really know as I can do much other than state my objections to deaf ears though.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#229

Post by ChuckMcM »

unclekev wrote: post #102

I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? All the people who were cutting engineered sto…

> I really don't get it.

I have no insight into Australia's workings here, in California this kind of WTF can happen in the sort of situation where there is an industry that is being disrupted/destroyed by the 'thing' in question and as a result a way is found to make the 'thing' bad (but not in a way that just says "It makes other options noncompetitive but in a way you can't argue with." Health issues are the go to straw man in that case.

You absolutely could create big fines for the contracting and construction companies that sold an engineered stone solution which would protect the workers as it would be noncompetitive to not follow the rules and risk a huge fine. But that wouldn't help the granite and stainless steel countertop folks would it? Or the contractors that install granite or stainless steel.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#230

Post by dbcurtis »

Incipient wrote: post #96
dbcurtis wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Installers and the folks back in the shops that cut the slabs for a particular job. Many are young, hardworking trades with limited English trying to give their young families a better life. Very sad. They didn’t know how bad it is, and I bet the contractor that owns the shop didn’t know until recently either.

Don't sensationalise it with "hard-working people with limited English". That's definitely not the people that were interviewed for media pieces here at least. >They didn’t know how bad it is, and I bet the contractor that owns the shop didn’t know until recently either. That's the issue. It wasn't well known or well talked about, and proper safety wasn't put in place. Bloody hell wheat is both a drowning risk AND an…

Maybe not for the media piece here, in the best HN tradition, I didn't read it. I am talking from personal experience. I met the installers and visited the shop where the granite counter tops for my kitchen were cut. Hard working guys, not great English. I respect their hustle and attitude -- I didn't start with much of anything, either. It really does sadden me to think what has happened to many of them.

As for not knowing, well, we humans been cutting stone for a long time and know the dust isn't good for you.

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