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To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

nytimes.com

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Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#471

Post by notfed »

felizuno wrote: post #168

So much sympathy for drug users and business owners, but what about the private citizens who get victimized by these drug users? I was beaten nearly to death (in broad daylight, in a residential neighborhood) in Seattle in 2020 by two men enabled to descend into meth addiction by permissive policies. In my victim support group I met so many people - innocent people - permanently injured & disfigured like me, or raped…

I'm sorry for your experience, but consider this: in central and south America, drug cartels are murdering and beating people every day. I think it would be an understatement to say there are more beatings and murders being dealt by drug cartels than meth-induced psychos.

Why do drug cartels thrive? Simple: because drugs are illegal in the USA. By legalizing drugs, we would bankrupt them.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#472

Post by civilitty »

sgron wrote: post #445
jorvi wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The parent comment was complaining that legal consumption made the environment threatening. What the top comment is implying as far as I can see is that going soft on drugs (“philosophical”, “internet argument”) is a solution for pen-pushers. Fucked up as his story may be, what has the war on drugs really ended up accomplishing? Do we really think amping it up will make things better? Legalization combined with har…

> what has the war on drugs really ended up accomplishing? I haven't studied this extensively, and I know that it's widely accepted that the war on drugs was unsuccessful, but I would caution against conflating "it didn't completely solve the problem" with "it had no positive impact at all." As a parent comment mentioned, periods of prohibition are generally associated with lower consumption overall (across both lega…

We're not talking about a war on drugs that "didn't completely solve the problem", we're talking about one that made the problem ten times worse and fucked up society in the process.

It doesn't matter if it had any positive impact, the negative impact outweigh them so much it's a downright crime against humanity that imprisoned millions of people in a system that constitutes modern day slave labor.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#473

Post by AndrewKemendo »

lbotos wrote: post #154
boopmaster wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m reading there that fentanyl appears to be the culprit. I realize it is a drug, but not sure if that’s even supposed to be in the drugs. Is this really a story of drug dealers cutting the drugs that people wanted.. into a lethal concoction? (Sorry I really don’t know, are users looking for fentanyl?)

Some are, some aren't. Some people do drugs to feel like a god, others to escape god. Jack the Bipper by Channel 5 was pretty solid. I'd recommend it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLGRGZTk51w

I subscribe to the channel 5 Patreon, and it has been shocking in its coverage of all the stuff.

Absolutely phenomenal journalism that nobody is paying attention to unfortunately

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#474

Post by seanmcdirmid »

BriggyDwiggs42 wrote: post #194
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody’s a victim when a kid falls and breaks an arm while skateboarding, but we have programs like CHIP to help kids have access to healthcare to get that arm treated, regardless. The kid is going to be fine after they are in a cast for a few weeks/months. A fentanyl addict, even with million of dollars over a few years of treatment, is more than likely never going to be OK again. Both involve moral hazard (if soc…

I’m gonna doubt that a million dollars couldn’t put a fent addict on their feet again. That’s a bold claim.

This is optimistic, the more common case is that the treatment still fails no matter how much money is dedicated to the task.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#476

Post by pj_mukh »

felizuno wrote: post #335
pj_mukh wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were they ever caught? This seems like assault (and battery?) all already illegal. Your problem doesn’t seem to be drugs but (probably) the defacto police work stoppage? That’s the problem in the Bay Area atleast [1] https://missionlocal.org/2023/03/police-staffing-crisis-san-...

Surprisingly yes, they were caught with much credit and appreciation to the detectives of SPD. In fact the police were very helpful in accessing support and counseling, and I should be completely honest that I would have described myself as loosely "anti police" until I had this experience. The issue was simply that these men were psychotic after using meth in an uninterrupted fashion, and emboldened by the fact that…

I appreciate this problem and empathize with what you've been through. I live in the bay with a toddler. I presume by "treated criminally" you mean jail time. But by all accounts and data, jail time makes drug habits significantly worse [1]. The extreme version of this is just dragnet police enforcement turning every simple drug use into ever-worsening drug use (aka the weed-to-fentanyl pipeline).

In your specific case, it means a low-level drug offender going to jail and coming out hardened using more aggressive drugs, evermore ready to unleash violence at worse levels.

I'm happy to think through what a low-recidivism version of "treated criminally" could be, but it is not any of the options we currently have.

The paper I linked has some interesting suggestions as to how to change the current incarceration systems to support actual drug treatment.

P.S: I think police should have better tools, and better pay (it's a hard job!) but also higher accountability, Police vs. Anti-Police is a made-up twitter dichotomy.

[1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK234751/

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#477

Post by thegrim33 »

randombits0 wrote: post #404
Aurornis wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just legalize it and let people get pure product at dirt cheap prices. Having traveled to Portland recently and witnessed the public drug problem first hand, I have no idea how anyone would think that increasing availability of the drugs would improve the situation. The only thing legalization and widespread availability would help is reducing deaths from tainted drugs. While that is a significant problem, anything…

The biggest problem with dying by overdose is measuring the dose. Legal drugs presume quality control and standardized dosing. This, alone, could prevent the majority of opioid deaths.

I bet what would work even better to prevent overdose deaths is not having our cities full of people doing opioids.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#478

Post by nradov »

hifreq wrote: post #136
Swizec wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unemployment rate is very low in the US Caveat: unemployment statistics don't count people who aren't seeking work. Which chronically homeless and/or drug addicted people usually do not. > The unemployment rate measures the share of workers in the labor force who do not currently have a job but are actively looking for work . People who have not looked for work in the past four weeks are not included in this measur…

> Basically what unemployment rate tells us is that USA has enough jobs for people who want to work. It says nothing about people who have given up looking. That's a fair point. If people are not seeking work but claim benefits indefinitely, doesn't this require a different solution than blaming the society and expecting taxpayers to take care of that?

Which benefits are you referring to? Unemployment insurance and welfare are generally time limited. Disability payments can last forever, specifically because those people can't work. (There is a small amount of disability fraud by people who are capable of working but choose not too, and are able to convince physicians to approve their claims.)

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#479

Post by losteric »

hifreq wrote: post #351
losteric wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're acting like people aren't emotionally attached to their home cities. Most people are born and raised in the same city or area their whole lives. The adult illiteracy rate is 20% and less than 40% get any kind of 4 year degree. Options are limited. People will cling to hope and the life (and community!) they know, until they're broke and lost their job... and at that point, they straight up can't move to Fresno…

> You're acting like people aren't emotionally attached to their home cities. Respectfully, you misplace the responsibility. When people go through a rough breakup, we don't call for the person experiencing attachment anxiety to be housed with their ex just because it would make things easier for one party at least temporarily. Life is full of hard moments and challenging choices. The fact that something is hard does…

With all due respect, I was responding to your original highly reductionistic take

> Do you want me to solve this for you? Here you go:

As if your list was anything close to a viable solution for someone already homeless and addicted.

With this post, you're right - it is absolutely more complex. There are absolutely families on the street, they're just more likely in cars or squatting rather than assaulting people.

Beds can be located in places that lock people out of employment or introduce them to toxic elements... and becoming unhoused by itself causes mental health issues in a society which does nothing but stigmatize that from birth to adulthood.

Even within treatment, skilled help is chronically burned out and mediocre help is worse than a rubber duck.

There's a need for structural reform, from policing through sentencing and voluntary/mandatory rehabilitation, as well as public education. Not to mention real estate bottlenecks that drive up prices for everone from low-income odd-job workers, to the city police force, to building new institutional facilities, to staffing social services.

Re: To revive Portland, officials seek to ban public drug use

#480

Post by hifreq »

shiroiuma wrote: post #372
hifreq wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that the reduction in the role of religion in the US is partially to blame for the increase in severe cases of drug addition, the idea that we need to bring religion back essentially to control people is extremely patronizing. Basically, we are saying that some people are too stupid to live productively if they are not controlled by fairy tales. This is the same approach as we are seeing in the "far lef…

>the idea that we need to bring religion back essentially to control people is extremely patronizing. Basically, we are saying that some people are too stupid to live productively if they are not controlled by fairy tales. Can something be simultaneously true and patronizing? Just looking at how humans in general behave worldwide, I'd say that yes, people are really quite stupid.

Ha, well, yes. But despite sounding so anti-religious and pro individual responsibility, I am not only optimistic, I am always inspired and heartened by us, humans. I believe, we are capable of incredible breakthroughs and are growing as a whole. Untangling from centuries of brutal religious domination will take time, and we will struggle, and sometimes fail. But eventually we will grow out of the need to find purpose in submission, and will thrive as more aware and realized beings.
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