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Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

reuters.com

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Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#381

Post by xorcist »

mongol wrote: post #24
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are the national postal service, successor to the old Posten AB (which just means “The Post, Ltd”), and before that Postverket (“The Post Agency”). There is nothing strange about the notion of a postal strike, that's why the US has the USPS to begin with (its predecessor's employees went on strike and brought the US federal govt to its knees).

What I find strange is that when a subset of employees strike, PostNord doesn't feel obligated to deliver at all, even though they have employees that are not part of the union and are not covered by the strike. This while PostNord has legal obligations to deliver mail. Consider a "model factory" where 60 % of employees are union members. A strike is initiated and those 60% go on strike. It is reasonable to expect th…

You seem to be advocating that PostNord bring in strike breakers to do the jobs of the people at strike?

That would be an insane way to escalate the conflict to a level which would bring down the entire force of all the unions combined. They are a huge employer and to even bring up the idea would be regarded infinitely more serious than whatever tiny Tesla is doing.

This is a conflict that PostNord has zero desire to be part of. Their employees are on a perfectly legal strike, they will handle this by the book. All their contracts with their customers already stipulates exactly what can be expected in a force majeure situation such as this, and their union is careful not to disrupt their business more than necessary as that is in their best interest.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#382

Post by xorcist »

mongol wrote: post #63
RandomLensman wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Question on Swedish law: Can PostNord even know who is a union member and who is not? Are only union members allowed to strike?

On the second question - my understanding is that non-union associated employees do not have a protected right to strike, as individual employeees. You can't just refuse work and say "I strike!" At least their rights are weaker. Much of Swedish labor laws are about associations of employees (=unions) and associations of employers. As an individual, your rights are not the same. We will see what the courts say in the…

It's the other way around. Unionized workers have traded away their right to strike without union support.

Anyone can strike, it is a basic right, but good luck not getting paid. That salary might have been handy for the legal representation after being fired too.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#383

Post by xorcist »

suoduandao3 wrote: post #141
throw_a_grenade wrote: post #126

> Musk said last week: “I disagree with the idea of unions. I just don’t like anything which creates a lords-and-peasants kind of thing.” This sounds ridiculous.

A lot of what Musk says and does sounds ridiculous. That doesn't make it wise to dismiss out of hand. I actually agree that a lot of unions reinforce an us-vs-them mentality that might be necessary in local disputes but certainly isn't as good as having everyone's incentives aligned. What I think Musk might be missing in this context is that European unions have a deep history in the guild system and are related not…

Any unions on a European level are loosely connected support groups. Nothing else.

Nordic unions are fundamentally different from for example the French, which are more like the American. Both organize workers, but from completely different perspectives and completely different roles in their respective economic systems.

None of them have much to do with the guild systems of old. Some countries still have the guild systems intact.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#384

Post by xorcist »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #148
throw_a_grenade wrote: post #126

> Musk said last week: “I disagree with the idea of unions. I just don’t like anything which creates a lords-and-peasants kind of thing.” This sounds ridiculous.

He probably said quite a bit more than just that. If you extract just one sentence from somebody's position, you can make anyone look ridiculous. Looking at this from a distance and without picking sides, I can see both sides have a point and a bigger agenda. The actual conflict seems like it is a sideshow to this bigger agenda. In Scandinavia the unions are historically very strong. Strong as in they are mostly soci…

I think you underestimate how much the employer's unions want contract law to be respected.

As for the socialist conspiracy theories, they mostly feel out of favor in the 1990s.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#385

Post by xorcist »

onethought wrote: post #173

Spotify also had a breakdown with unions and its workforce. With no where near the fall out that Tesla is getting. Surely that is a bigger deal than Tesla service centres!? Anti Elon, anti American sentiment?

Spotify has negotiated, they just haven't come to an agreement.

Tesla has refused to negotiate. Even then, it still took five years before the conflict escalated.

At some point negotiations with Spotify will have to be restarted. It's likely not an option for Spotify to exit the country completely, which is perfectly possible for Tesla.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#386

Post by xorcist »

noirscape wrote: post #214
felipemnoa wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't think this is tricky at all. If Musk is serious about the fight then I'm sure that for the right price they can find other couriers to meet their needs. Even if they had to pay an order of magnitude more money. It would only be for the short term.

This isn't possible for Tesla because PostNord currently has the exclusive right to deliver license plates - they literally can't hire any other courier company to do it.

They could, the next time the contract is up for renegotiation.

It would require however that there are other couriers that fulfill their safety requirements with the logistic infrastructure to deliver to the entire country. That's not likely. But entirely within the realm of possibility that someone with deep pockets could start one.

However it would not make any difference for Tesla, as that courier would also be unionized. Few other companies would do business with them otherwise, as Tesla is about to find out.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#387

Post by xorcist »

pard68 wrote: post #280
VoxPelli wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s easy to avoid actions like this: Sign a collective bargain with a union and all unions are bound to leave you at peace for that agreements duration. So far two international companies have refused this: Toys R Us decades ago, eventually they had to give in. Tesla now.

Why? They pay taxes. They pay shipping. Why do you also have to pay extortion fees?

Nobody is demanding any fees.

Of course you sign a contract when doing business. It's like that in any market economy.

What's peculiar about Sweden is how that extends to the labor market. So instead of commercial civil law you have contract law. That's the only difference.

Tesla can either negotiate a contract and do business, or exit the market. They are free to do either.

What seemingly confuses people is that Tesla is not breaking any civil law. Only contract law, which the market has organized around, and which it is free to refuse their business about.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#388

Post by xorcist »

peterfirefly wrote: post #364
pard68 wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially for US investors I suspect. That this is legal and seems to be at least partially government led, is absolutely mind boggling to me.

It isn't quite legal -- it's just customary to pretend it is. The dealership situation in the US is a good comparison -- Tesla refused to comply with the parasites in the American system and set up dealerships. Tesla managed to sell on the internet or in neighbouring states while fighting to get many of the dealership protection laws overturned. They did indeed succeed in getting some of them overturned (deemed illeg…

> I think Tesla has a good case here

You misunderstand. There is no case. Tesla refuses to negotiate with the labor market, and the labor market refuses to do business with them.

They can either get a contract, in which case they are free to do business under contract law, or exit the market.

> and are therefore risky places to invest

It can certainly be argued that Sweden specifically has lax rule of law around the labor markets, depending on which countries you compare it with. But if you were to argue that the Nordic countries in general are risky places to invest, you'd likely get laughed out of the room. It is perhaps the region in the world with the strongest legal systems and stable societies and has spotless history of adhering to trade agreements and international rule of law.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#389

Post by gruez »

xorcist wrote: post #376
gruez wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you support taxes (or striking) and the government (or the union) forces you to pay taxes (or strike), you're not being "forced". So far so good. But what if you don't support taxes (or striking)? You might think taxes are a good thing and are necessary for a functioning society, but it's still pretty clear that for someone that doesn't want to pay taxes, they're forced to pay taxes.

If you don't want to strike, then don't strike. What is the issue here?

I'm under the impression that the strikes are being enforced by the union. In other words if you're a union member, and the union voted to strike, you can't unilaterally decide to continue working. Is this not the case?

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#390

Post by cornholio »

peterfirefly wrote: post #364
pard68 wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially for US investors I suspect. That this is legal and seems to be at least partially government led, is absolutely mind boggling to me.

It isn't quite legal -- it's just customary to pretend it is. The dealership situation in the US is a good comparison -- Tesla refused to comply with the parasites in the American system and set up dealerships. Tesla managed to sell on the internet or in neighbouring states while fighting to get many of the dealership protection laws overturned. They did indeed succeed in getting some of them overturned (deemed illeg…

Speaking of dirty fights, I'm not quite sure if Sweden can afford to win this. They are a major exporter in the US, Volvo brands control 15% of the truck market. US is one of the three major export destinations for Sweden, and a good chunk of the $18 billion exports are vehicles and related parts and supplies.

So if the Swedish state, by its inaction, allows an American car company to be targeted by public employees to the point where it is driven out of the market, the proportional retaliation from the US is not a 10% or 20% import duty; it's the complete blocking of Swedish brands. This would cost Sweden entire percentages of GDP and countless jobs.

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