Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

theregister.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

531–540 of 541 posts

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#531

Post by xorcist »

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #235
Hikikomori wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not allowed to pick and choose themselves. Why and when you can strike and sympathy strike is clearly defined, if you take action outside this framework it would be an illegal strike. And just to add, the postal service in question is private and works like a private company, though the states of Sweden and Denmark fully owns it. Employees are not state employees.

> And just to add, the postal service in question is private and works like a private company, though the states of Sweden and Denmark fully owns it. Employees are not state employees. I don't think you understand how a private company works. You can't say it is a private company owned by the state - if that is the case, it is a public government agency, no matter how you want it not to be. So in short, a government…

Why would you say that? It's clearly not a government agency. It is a company.

It's not something one can have an opinion on. It is a fact, and an important one for the people working there. Being a government worker comes with certain rights and responsibilities, neither of which is the case here.

But even if it had been a government agency, government workers have the fundamental human right to strike too. There are a few exceptions, and then there are special laws for times of war, but none that are applicable now.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#532

Post by xorcist »

Leherenn wrote: post #185
eddtries wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* and the strike must be lawful, to strike. You couldn’t arbitrarily strike and stop delivering mail to Trump for example.

Sorry if I am obtuse, but what's the difference between Trump and a specific company? That one is a legal entity? If the plates were to be delivered not to Tesla, but to an individual, then they wouldn't be allowed not to deliver them?

It is not a question of what is allowed. The company delivering parcels must fulfill their contracts, but the contracts clearly have stipulations for force majeure. Which a strike is, by the very definition.

What is not clear here? Sweden has very few strikes, but this is a textbook example of one. The postal worker's union have called for their members to refuse to carry out a specific work. This is well within their rights to do. The union calls for this as part of a collective action for their fellow workers.

The company delivering the parcels could call for their employer's union to lock out the workers on strike. But why would they want to escalate the conflict? They too prefer their collective bargaining agreements respected. And they are clearly not in violation of any of their contracts as this is a legal strike.

There are plenty of gray areas within worker's rights, but this is as simple as it could be.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#533

Post by xorcist »

yreg wrote: post #85
toxik wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, and they don’t. The workers do.

I find it insane that the workers of the state-owned postal office can decide what mail to deliver based on their personal views. What's next, the mass transit drivers refusing to stop near Tesla's offices? Court workers refusing to accept Tesla's lawsuits? Firemen refusing to put out fire on Tesla's properties?

Firemen and police are unlikely to strike, but expect to see them to start losing bank service, office services, and trash services next. Then, expect neighboring countries to start doing the same.

Sweden has few strikes. In fact, hardly any. Worker's rights are generally by contract rather than by law. When the unions move in unison like this, they come prepared and expect to win.

It is an existential issue for them, in a literal sense. Should they lose, laws will be rewritten and trade agreements will have to be renegotiated.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#534

Post by xorcist »

robertlagrant wrote: post #237
bayindirh wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are increasing the pressure on a company which is not treating their workers well and fairly. These workers are friends, wives, husbands, relatives… It’s more than justified.

You're missing the point. I'm not debating the validity of whether people should leave Tesla and go work somewhere else. I'm saying that it's not a strike if you're just refusing service to a customer. A strike - whether because of your circumstances or another's - is you downing tools and stopping working.

A strike has a legal definition which is not open for debate.

Perhaps you are thinking of a general strike? This is a solidarity strike.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#535

Post by xorcist »

redandblack wrote: post #88
eckesicle wrote: post #25

> Postal workers even decided not to deliver mail to the electric automaker, including license plates – an action that Musk called "insane". The local court has since put a stop to that action. This is no longer true. A higher court overturned that decision and the license plates are again blocked from reaching Tesla.

I hope Elon gets the license plates delivered by courier, which really cannot be that expensive. Then the unions have to figure out their next steps. Get your popcorn

Easy. Should Tesla continue to play hardball, the next step is likely the union of bank workers cutting off their financial services.

There are few courier companies large enough to take their service, even in a scenario where the contract for license plate delivery can be breached (which it isn't, as this is force majeure by definition), but there are even fewer banks. And they're all unionized.

Not much need for popcorn. Refusing to negotiate is clearly not a winning strategy. And it's not supposed to be.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#536

Post by martin8412 »

mattlutze wrote: post #298
rch wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the postal carriers are within their rights to refuse to make deliveries in support of Tesla purchases, but the government will need to explain why Tesla shouldn't be allowed to explore alternatives for customers to comply with legal requirements.

I very much support workers collecting in solidarity to support each other. I'm not sure that I like the idea of official agents of a state office, or de facto state office, being authorized to independently choose how to execute their duties. Would it also be permitted for a group of socially conservative postal workers to refuse to deliver wedding licenses or legal documents to same sex partnerships? To determine w…

Conservatives would perhaps refuse to engage in strikes against Swedish companies, but an American company they'd want to drive them out. Conservatives in the Nordics are just nationalists.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#537

Post by martin8412 »

1970-01-01 wrote: post #366
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they should get temporary relief during that suit Sure, from Tesla. We're talking about a purchase and sale between private parties and a contract dispute between private parties.

Well if its 'just Tesla' that is being denied use, then Tesla can hide their main company behind offshore corporations, so dozens of corporations need to be cut simultaneously to stop the plates.

No, they can't. They need to receive money in SEK. That requires a thorough background check to comply with AML. That will reveal the company behind.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#538

Post by martin8412 »

logifail wrote: post #192
vodou wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of this goes back to the "Saltsjöbaden Agreement", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltsj%C3%B6baden_Agreement . To quote myself from the other day: "Basically, the government has left to the industry and unions to agree on a lot of stuff that is decided by law in other countries. E.g. Sweden does not have a minimum wage. This system has led to much fewer costly conflicts and strikes compared to many other countri…

> has left to the industry and unions to agree on a lot of stuff (From the outside) it seems hard to understand why something should be effectively be mandatory without being officially mandatory. If collective agreements are to be mandatory, the government should just pass a law making them mandatory, then that's done. Hiding behind the claim "it's up to each employer and their employees" to decide is just silly.

It's essentially mandatory unless you provide better terms on your own. If the unions want a CBA in that case, it doesn't change a single thing. You sign and nothing changes. Tesla claims to provide better than the CBA but openly refuses to sign which doesn't pass the smell test.

Tesla wants to punish anyone who joins a union which is super illegal. We're talking prison time if they don't back down. They can't take away the stock benefit when IF Metall wins. They've put it out there, and if they take it away because of unionisation, they'll lose. It's a huge fucking no.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#539

Post by pnt12 »

lawn wrote: post #491
henry2023 wrote: post #248

Unions are simply like GPOs[^1] but with the most valuable asset in any organization. Their workers. It baffles me to read anti-union comments from fellow tech-workers. It's so clear that unions give back a tiny bit of negotiation power into your own hands and yet people side with the exec whose only purpose is to extract as much value from the organization as possible. You are supporting the "competitive labor wage…

> It baffles me to read anti-union comments from fellow tech-workers. Tech workers is one of the most well-paid and privileged working classes on the planet. We have it so good that we don't need the extra bargaining power unions provide. It's not surprising, we humans have a hard time understanding circumstances that are very different from our own.

It has been a very competitive market, so companies have to give something to employees. If it weren't, they would enjoy the spoilers and pay the minimum they could - given the amounts of layoffs, we may be going into that direction.

Re: Swedish Tesla strike goes international as Norwegian and Danish unions join in

#540

Post by peterfirefly »

peterfirefly wrote: post #396
anonyfox wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "not compromising on principles" which almost always is immature behavior, whereas adults think solution-oriented, which sometimes is called "Realpolitik" (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik ). Doesn't get better in this particular case where musk is opposing to officially agree to common worker protection rules, wages, ... he already follows . Just another case of "dumb behavior".

Most things are iterated games so "not compromising on principles" can be a really good strategy if you can afford it.

I should add that that is true both for Tesla (and Elon personally) and for the Swedish unions (and the other Nordic unions).
Post reply on HN