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Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

reuters.com

61–70 of 409 posts

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#61
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, and one is the principles of a large car company from another country while the other is the social underpinnings of the countries entire labour market going back a century

That is exaggregated. This is IF Metall vs Tesla, not Sweden vs Tesla.

I'm not a member of if metall (member of a lame yellow union) but I'm a Swede and it's us against Elon. I stand with the metallers in solidarity!

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#62
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both, unlike in the US the Swedish post office is privatized and handled by multiple companies, eg Citymail also offers postal services. PostNord has won the tender with the Swedish transport authority though and as such is the one they should use. PostNord is the result of the merger between the privatized (but state owned) Swedish and Danish postal services. But also – union rights and postal rights needs to be wei…

I am surprised that in this case Swedes value individual rights over their duty to the public.

Tesla is not the public.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#63
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find strange is that when a subset of employees strike, PostNord doesn't feel obligated to deliver at all, even though they have employees that are not part of the union and are not covered by the strike. This while PostNord has legal obligations to deliver mail. Consider a "model factory" where 60 % of employees are union members. A strike is initiated and those 60% go on strike. It is reasonable to expect th…

Question on Swedish law: Can PostNord even know who is a union member and who is not? Are only union members allowed to strike?

On the second question - my understanding is that non-union associated employees do not have a protected right to strike, as individual employeees. You can't just refuse work and say "I strike!" At least their rights are weaker. Much of Swedish labor laws are about associations of employees (=unions) and associations of employers. As an individual, your rights are not the same. We will see what the courts say in the end but this distinction is not so well known, and it often comes as a surprise for non-unionized members when a company is downsizing.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#64
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is one arbitrary and the other not? I don't understand the distinction you are making.

Because it is based on pre-stated principles, which the other party is capable of fulfilling. This makes it non-arbitrary.

I don't understand how my statement of firemen refusing to put out a fire because they didn't like the person is arbitrary. If they publicly stated they do not like the person because of their politics and will refuse to put out fires for anyone supporting that party does that make it okay to not put out a fire on their house?

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#65
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should individuals be forced to perform their duties against their wills?

If you are rendering a public service, absolutely. Unless doctors can just start letting patients die on their tables because they don't like their patient's politics.

What's wrong with a doctor refusing to treat a patient they don't like?

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#66
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find strange is that when a subset of employees strike, PostNord doesn't feel obligated to deliver at all, even though they have employees that are not part of the union and are not covered by the strike. This while PostNord has legal obligations to deliver mail. Consider a "model factory" where 60 % of employees are union members. A strike is initiated and those 60% go on strike. It is reasonable to expect th…

Question on Swedish law: Can PostNord even know who is a union member and who is not? Are only union members allowed to strike?

Anyone can strike. Being part of the union and contributing to it guarantee you are being paid (by the union) while on strike.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every culture has its own unwritten rules and customs. If you want to do business in a foreign culture, it's your responsibility to learn those customs and adapt to them. If you refuse to adapt and your business suffers because of the backlash, the cause of failure was your cultural insensitivity and/or ignorance.

> Every culture has its own unwritten rules and customs. Many cultures have bribery as an unwritten rule and custom. Every official you run across is expecting a small bribe. Should companies adopt that culture as well?

That's a good question almost every major international business struggles with. As far as I know, the usual answers are paying the required bribes quietly and refusing to do business in that culture. The third option, trying to do business without paying bribes, rarely works.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#68
post #61
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is exaggregated. This is IF Metall vs Tesla, not Sweden vs Tesla.

I'm not a member of if metall (member of a lame yellow union) but I'm a Swede and it's us against Elon. I stand with the metallers in solidarity!

That's completely fine. I think many do. But it is not as black and white as some state it

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#69
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are unwritten rules everywhere. The nice thing is that when the unions in Sweden do strike unlike in the US where maybe they will get some support, there is massive groundswell of support behind them to actually get the company to make a change. The fact that the whole country collectively agrees gives the workers far more power.

How does a country give workers more power? By creating a business-friendly environment. The more companies operate in your country, the more choice of employers. Treated badly? Go work for a competitor. That’s how you put pressure on companies to treat staff better.

That solution relies on a lot of things having a greater effect than they actually do. It fits the pie in the sky solutions libertarians seem to like so much. Such as high healthcare costs can be fixed by creating greater choice via lowering the barrier of entry to becoming a doctor. The free market, in fact, is not actually the solution of all of society’s ills. Unions raise wages. Anti union laws and or lack of unions results in lower wages. People also just don’t have the kind of job mobility libertarians assume.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point the famed Swedish model shows its limits, IMHO. > "It's about the Swedish collective agreement model, and there is a consensus on it, both politically and between the parties in the labour market, Seko's president Gabriella Lavecchia told Reuters by email. And yet this is not a legal obligation, as far as I understand, and Tesla is acting lawfully. So the model seems to be that there are unwritten rules…

That kind of sounds like pretty much any society: lots of unwritten rules that can be costly to violate.

If you try to write down every case of being a jerk instead of just having a society-wide agreement "don't be an utter jerk", you wind up with lots of fine print, rich lawyers, and at least as many people still being jerks.

Consider the complexity of a vending machine vs. a can where people can leave their payments... Any society probably has places where you need the former, and places where you can get away with the latter, but I prefer those societies where most of the places in between are on the can end of the spectrum.

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