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Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

reuters.com

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Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#41

Post by RandomLensman »

schiffern wrote: post #37
tyingq wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, they could research the business climate and laws in a country before establishing a presence. Then feel free to buck established practice, but at least know the potential consequences.

Sure, in that case maybe Tesla would never have entered Sweden, but what good is that? It's bad for Sweden, Tesla, and the environment. Discovering this Swedish 'quirk' then vs. now wouldn't make Tesla any more likely to roll over to extralegal bullying tactics.

What is extralegal currently?

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#42

Post by anonymouskimmer »

hiatus wrote: post #19
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are the national postal service, successor to the old Posten AB (which just means “The Post, Ltd”), and before that Postverket (“The Post Agency”). There is nothing strange about the notion of a postal strike, that's why the US has the USPS to begin with (its predecessor's employees went on strike and brought the US federal govt to its knees).

> There is nothing strange about the notion of a postal strike, that's why the US has the USPS to begin with (its predecessor's employees went on strike and brought the US federal govt to its knees). Can the USPS outright refuse to deliver all valid and legally paid for mail from a sender? I don't think so but can be corrected.

The USPS has a "universal service obligation", so no. The US postal strike of 1970 (which I hadn't heard of before) was apparently illegal, but when a huge number of people perform an illegal act it's often not in the government interest to fire them, but to instead negotiate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_postal_strike_of...

: President Nixon appeared on national television and ordered the employees back to work, but his address only stiffened the resolve of the existing strikers and angered workers in another 671 locations in other cities into walking out as well. Workers in other government agencies also announced they would strike if Nixon pursued legal action against the postal employees.[7]

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#43

Post by LesZedCB »

schiffern wrote: post #37
tyingq wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, they could research the business climate and laws in a country before establishing a presence. Then feel free to buck established practice, but at least know the potential consequences.

Sure, in that case maybe Tesla would never have entered Sweden, but what good is that? It's bad for Sweden, Tesla, and the environment. Discovering this Swedish 'quirk' then vs. now wouldn't make Tesla any more likely to roll over to extralegal bullying tactics.

they aren't extralegal. the strike actions are protected by law. they are exercising their legal right every bit as much as tesla is by suing (and losing).

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#44

Post by mongol »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #27
mongol wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find strange is that when a subset of employees strike, PostNord doesn't feel obligated to deliver at all, even though they have employees that are not part of the union and are not covered by the strike. This while PostNord has legal obligations to deliver mail. Consider a "model factory" where 60 % of employees are union members. A strike is initiated and those 60% go on strike. It is reasonable to expect th…

Striking is a constitutionally protected right in Sweden. The belief of PostNord is that the right of their employees to strike weighs higher than PostNord's obligation to deliver mail.

Not that simple. RF states striking as a protected right for an association of employees. It is not an individually protected right.

"Stridsåtgärder på arbetsmarknaden [K2]14 § En förening av arbetstagare samt arbetsgivare och en förening av arbetsgivare har rätt att vidta stridsåtgärder på arbetsmarknaden, om inte annat följer av lag eller avtal. "

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#45

Post by hiatus »

bigmanwalter wrote: post #39
hiatus wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are okay with, say, the individuals of a fire department deciding not to put out a fire because they don't like someone? This is a public service we are talking about here.

Should individuals be forced to perform their duties against their wills?

If you are rendering a public service, absolutely. Unless doctors can just start letting patients die on their tables because they don't like their patient's politics.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#46

Post by cbeach »

ArchOversight wrote: post #22
mytailorisrich wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point the famed Swedish model shows its limits, IMHO. > "It's about the Swedish collective agreement model, and there is a consensus on it, both politically and between the parties in the labour market, Seko's president Gabriella Lavecchia told Reuters by email. And yet this is not a legal obligation, as far as I understand, and Tesla is acting lawfully. So the model seems to be that there are unwritten rules…

There are unwritten rules everywhere. The nice thing is that when the unions in Sweden do strike unlike in the US where maybe they will get some support, there is massive groundswell of support behind them to actually get the company to make a change. The fact that the whole country collectively agrees gives the workers far more power.

How does a country give workers more power? By creating a business-friendly environment. The more companies operate in your country, the more choice of employers.

Treated badly? Go work for a competitor. That’s how you put pressure on companies to treat staff better.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#47

Post by RandomLensman »

mongol wrote: post #24
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are the national postal service, successor to the old Posten AB (which just means “The Post, Ltd”), and before that Postverket (“The Post Agency”). There is nothing strange about the notion of a postal strike, that's why the US has the USPS to begin with (its predecessor's employees went on strike and brought the US federal govt to its knees).

What I find strange is that when a subset of employees strike, PostNord doesn't feel obligated to deliver at all, even though they have employees that are not part of the union and are not covered by the strike. This while PostNord has legal obligations to deliver mail. Consider a "model factory" where 60 % of employees are union members. A strike is initiated and those 60% go on strike. It is reasonable to expect th…

Question on Swedish law: Can PostNord even know who is a union member and who is not? Are only union members allowed to strike?

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#48

Post by RandomLensman »

hiatus wrote: post #32
VoxPelli wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arbitrary discrimination can’t be compared to organized union strikes?

Why is one arbitrary and the other not? I don't understand the distinction you are making.

Because it relates to a labor dispute?

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#49

Post by anonymouskimmer »

hiatus wrote: post #32
VoxPelli wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arbitrary discrimination can’t be compared to organized union strikes?

Why is one arbitrary and the other not? I don't understand the distinction you are making.

Because it is based on pre-stated principles, which the other party is capable of fulfilling. This makes it non-arbitrary.

Re: Swedish court rules against Tesla in dispute with postal service over deliveries

#50

Post by mnsc »

tuwtuwtuwtuw wrote: post #4
nabla9 wrote: post #2

Small differences in labor law make all the difference. In Finland, Tesla repair shops follow the minimums stated in collective agreements and Musk probably don't even know about it. In Sweden it's issue for him. Finland has generally applicable collective agreements where employers should observe at least the provisions of a national collective agreement considered representative in the relevant sector. When a colle…

According to Tesla, the agreement which employees have in Sweden is already better than the minimum bar set by union, so Teslas issues appears to more out of principle than out of actual issues with the agreement itself. Or Tesla is lying and the agreement with employees is not actually better.

Swede here. That is what every company that doesn't want to play according to the Swedish model says. I worked at one of those companies and yes, pay and benefits were better, up until I reached a certain age where the "collective deal" would have been better for me. Was this tiny detail communicated clearly to me? Of course not, I heard it from a colleague who was older and had been at other companies. Was it a lie that "we have a better deal"? I wouldn't say so. Am I still at that company? No.
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