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An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

pythonafrica.blogspot.com

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Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#291

Post by ExoticPearTree »

Xeamek wrote: post #126
gwervc wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But that's the whole problem: they shouldn't have to hide it in the first place. In Rome do as the Romans do. Cultural norms differ by countries and should be respected. Also this kind of indignation is very selective, I've never read a software fundation complaining about it being unsafe to travel as a christian in Marocco (where owing a bible is forbidden by law) for example.

>In Rome do as the Romans do. Cultural norms differ by countries and should be respected. Only to a degree where those cultural norms are acceptable.

Then don't go if you feel like the norms are not acceptable to you. In this day and age is not that hard do do a little research before going to a place you've never been before.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#292

Post by _cenw »

kabanda1 wrote: post #268
bitcurious wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> FYI, Most people here have no idea what LGBTQ means and those who do don't give a damn. Those leading the making of laws and noise making are just populists after their bread. How do you reconcile these two statements? Populists by definition appeal to public sentiment, to the detriment of principals or morality. If no one cares, why are they wasting their time? It's like the old joke "no one goes there, it's too c…

Maybe a wrong word to use. But politicians claim to be representing the people's voice in ceating those laws is not entirely correct. In most African countries, people are still uncomfortable with LGBTQ, and the general show of love in public but not hostile to the extent of enacted laws Remember most LGBTQ activism is sponsored by the west, so politicians use that to heat up the population about family, bill gates,…

[flagged]

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#293

Post by bivgh »

_cenw wrote: post #142
kabanda1 wrote: post #96

My guess is that this has much to do with how much they get out of Africa. It seems like they don't see the benefit of funding those conferences. About LBGTQ This looks to me like the Western behaviour where they sanction the whole country to death because they don't agree with policies of people in power. I am an African. And I live in a country where such laws targeting LGBTQ has been enacted. FYI, Most people here…

> This looks to me like the Western behaviour where they sanction the whole country to death because they don't agree with policies of people in power. If your policies put people at risk, limit to participation is a natural consequence. There is no conspiracy here. >I am an African. And I live in a country where such laws targeting LGBTQ has been enacted. FYI, Most people here have no idea what LGBTQ means and those…

Okay, then don't go to PyCon Africa or PyCon Saudi Arabia or whatever. You're not obliged to attend.

Your own life choices regarding body modifications and suchlike don't need to be held over everyone else in those regions who will benefit from these conferences.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#294

Post by Timon3 »

diiolk wrote: post #269
isodev wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what of trans folks? Are they supposed to not go to the toilet for 3 days so they don't offend your culture? Or when there is small talk, should I change "my husband" into "my wife" just so I don't upset the locals? I hope you see how ridiculous this "just don't show it" is, especially coming from folks who think LGBTQ+ is all about kissing and holing hands. A global event should not be hosted in a country, state…

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And you don't think there will be any problems if someone who outwardly has male features (e.g. a beard) walks into a female bathroom? Everyone will just be fine and say "Oh, they are probably transgender, no worries"?

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#295

Post by Karellen »

Longhanks wrote: post #222
Karellen wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can't you just... not? So, if someone attends with their partner, are you suggesting they "just... not" show any affection towards them while they're there? No hugging, no hand-holding, no pecks on the cheek? No resting a head on a shoulder? "Stating your sexual preference" is more nuanced that standing at passport control and blurting out "I'm gay!". Not stating it can involve changing the whole way you behave aro…

> So, if someone attends with their partner, are you suggesting they "just... not" show any affection towards them while they're there? No hugging, no hand-holding, no pecks on the cheek? No resting a head on a shoulder? Yes, I expect that absolutely. We also expect that behavior from students in high school during class. There's a time and place for things, and attending a conference in a country where such things a…

> in my opinion it's fair to conduct conferences in different countries.

First, let me say I agree with this, as with the rest of the points made in the Python Africa letter. It's spot on.

> There's a time and place for things, and attending a conference in a country where such things are considered illegal is neither.

My issue is, saying "can't you... just not?" (IMHO) massively trivialises how much of a sacrifice you're asking non-straight people to make. "can't you... just not?" seems to imply an incredulity why this would be any kind of imposition for non-straight people, and they should, like, get over it, man.

It is a reality that LGBT+ people have to face, and make their own decisions about, but that doesn't mean it's fine to make it out like no big deal.

> this is unfair, but those are the rules made by the country.

I get that. And also, that anyone attending needs to respect the fact that publicly disobeying the rules can have serious consequences.

Should the rules be obeyed? Probably. But are they worthy of respect? Fuck no.

> most people just don't care or are fine with respecting the rules,

I think you mean "most people not affected by the rules just don't care...". The same could be said for any civil rights struggle in the past. For a long time, most men didn't care or were just fine with respecting rules that discriminated against women, and most white people didn't care or were just fine with respecting rules that discriminated against people of color.

When people who are not affected by such rules stand up against them, that really helps.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#296

Post by jzb »

washadjeffmad wrote: post #284
jzb wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, just dug that up myself. I still feel that you ask for funding and then plan the event, if the funding is crucial, but clearly the PSF set an expectation that it didn't live up to. Note the same FAQ, though, says this: "There is no set maximum, but grants are awarded with consideration for the annual PSF grant budget and that events/sprints will be virtual...with that in mind are willing to consider up to $2,50…

In case you've never organized events before, it's a bit of a catch-22. You need to be prepared to accomplish what your funding request entails before you are awarded, to the degree of satisfaction of the grantor. When the criteria and timelines are unclear, as they were here, the requestor is put in a position where budgeting becomes a more serious jeopardy to an event than any planning concern. The PSF should have…

I’ve organized a lot of events, and I’ve been in the position of holding funding for community events. I’ve never put an event in motion with uncertain funding like this, ever. If I can’t do it without funding from a single entity and they may say “no” then I don’t set things in motion until they’ve said yes.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#297

Post by diiolk »

Timon3 wrote: post #294
diiolk wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

And you don't think there will be any problems if someone who outwardly has male features (e.g. a beard) walks into a female bathroom? Everyone will just be fine and say "Oh, they are probably transgender, no worries"?

[flagged]

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#298

Post by ks2048 »

pierat wrote: post #239
asylteltine wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people are so used to their western privilege they can’t fathom the idea of a culture not accepting things like being gay. It’s really not hard

Privilege? No, most African and Middle Eastern governments just have shitty governments based on an even worse religion. At least Western governments have the idea of Universal Human Rights ( https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma... ) And being 'accepted' or not is wholly different than 'executed' or 'jailed for life'. And for me, it's simple: don't go to most of Africa or anywhere in the Middl…

Your choice, your loss.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#299

Post by _cenw »

pierat wrote: post #239
asylteltine wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people are so used to their western privilege they can’t fathom the idea of a culture not accepting things like being gay. It’s really not hard

Privilege? No, most African and Middle Eastern governments just have shitty governments based on an even worse religion. At least Western governments have the idea of Universal Human Rights ( https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma... ) And being 'accepted' or not is wholly different than 'executed' or 'jailed for life'. And for me, it's simple: don't go to most of Africa or anywhere in the Middl…

Far for me to defend the policies of most countries in Africa, but... you do realize a lot of Africa in aggregate is closer to christian ethnonationalism of the US far right than radical islam, and that these policies exist regardless of majority religion, right?

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#300

Post by _cenw »

dijit wrote: post #195
_cenw wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

kind of missing the point, when it's not explicitly about citizens, the entire argument breaks apart especially if you consider west bank residents as potential speakers. > as inalienable or difficult to hide as [...] biological sex in case you extrapolated from my comment: i'm me, but other people are other people, and "the cis" can, in fact, not always tell. not even usually.

I guess you can always consider anyone excluded if you try. Iranian, North Korean and Cuban speakers, for example, would not be able to travel to America (or any US-allied country) as there are very explicit sanctions placed on those countries. Unless you're claiming Palestine is part of Israel and thus Palestinian citizens are Israeli ones, which would be a very controversial statement indeed.

It's just that you made a weird jump from "people attending Israel-hosted events" to "arab Israeli citizens" and I'm not sure how it happened. Though yes, as I said, I'd consider the difficulty there similar to going through TSA with an arabic name or wrong skin color.
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