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An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

pythonafrica.blogspot.com

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Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#121

Post by Xeamek »

DeathArrow wrote: post #114
Xeamek wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>software should not be tied to politics. Why not? I mean, software is a product like any other. I for example wouldn't like if a group like ISIS was using my software, especially if they were using it to actively help them in commiting their crimes. If I could prevent that from happening, why shouldn't I?

>Why not You have the right to hold you own political views, however you don't have the right to impose those on users of a particular software or participants in a software conference.

If that software is mine and I control who can use it? I absolutely do have the (practical) right to impose those values, yes.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#122

Post by baryphonic »

Xeamek wrote: post #28
mmtml wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point was not properly made on their behalf. That said, do the organizers of the conference have any saying on the politics on their country and actually deserve to be punished because of them? I don't really think so.

That's literally how any 'anti-state' action works, ever. Does an individual Russian have a say in what Putin does in Ukraine? Probably not. But countries are a collection of its citizens. The only way to 'punish' a country is to punish its citizens. Sometimes it's more direct, other times less. But at the end of the day, any and all actions will trickle down to punishing individuals, because that's simply how action…

> But countries are a collection of its citizens [sic]

This seems excessively reductionist. An organized state, borders, a system for generating revenue, an armed force, and other infrastructure seems necessary for a proper country to exist. All of these militate against treating the country as merely a collection of people, or using the people as the fodder to "punish" the country.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#123

Post by ttyprintk »

paganel wrote: post #82
Takennickname wrote: post #3

It's a grant, not an entitlement.

So what's the PSF for, then? Looks like supporting the spread of Python the language in geographical spaces like Africa should be at the top of their priorities list, at least by looking at current demographic trends, and not to invest in another boring Python conference held in Nowhere, OH, or in Neinpinkelsburg, Northern Rhenanina.

> to support and facilitate the growth of a diverse and international community of Python programmers.

A lot of comments are related to whether an alternative pan-African PSF would define diversity differently. If so, then a Eurocentric PSF might prefer conferences elsewhere.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#124

Post by zartusht »

kabanda1 wrote: post #96

My guess is that this has much to do with how much they get out of Africa. It seems like they don't see the benefit of funding those conferences. About LBGTQ This looks to me like the Western behaviour where they sanction the whole country to death because they don't agree with policies of people in power. I am an African. And I live in a country where such laws targeting LGBTQ has been enacted. FYI, Most people here…

[flagged]

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#125

Post by isodev »

orbital-decay wrote: post #112
rob74 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are laws, but as long as you mind your own business and don't disturb others, you will be left alone. that's exactly what differentiates developed from developing countries: the rule of law. Not saying that it's perfect in developed countries (far from it), but at least you don't have to fear being arrested and face life imprisonment for something that's "generally tolerated", but in your special case wasn't…

How many places in Africa are sufficiently "developed" based on your definition? Should they postpone all Python conferences until they develop the rule of law? People from the countries that implemented progressive policies sometimes show unreasonable arrogance by expecting the whole world to change instantly according to the freedoms they're used to at home.

Or maybe accept that when you’re organising a global event, you need to be able to provide a safe space keeping in mind that you’re hosting guests that don’t necessarily embrace your “way of life”.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#126

Post by Xeamek »

gwervc wrote: post #100
Xeamek wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need LGBT hunt squads. All you need is the fact that a gay couple holding hands or kissing publicly is unsafe. "Then just don't kiss publicly". Sure, hiding one's sexuality isn't that hard, especially for a short period of time. But that's the whole problem: they shouldn't have to hide it in the first place. Home people might know you, but in home country you are against only bigoted individuals, not the en…

> But that's the whole problem: they shouldn't have to hide it in the first place. In Rome do as the Romans do. Cultural norms differ by countries and should be respected. Also this kind of indignation is very selective, I've never read a software fundation complaining about it being unsafe to travel as a christian in Marocco (where owing a bible is forbidden by law) for example.

>In Rome do as the Romans do. Cultural norms differ by countries and should be respected.

Only to a degree where those cultural norms are acceptable.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#127

Post by mrweasel »

kabanda1 wrote: post #96

My guess is that this has much to do with how much they get out of Africa. It seems like they don't see the benefit of funding those conferences. About LBGTQ This looks to me like the Western behaviour where they sanction the whole country to death because they don't agree with policies of people in power. I am an African. And I live in a country where such laws targeting LGBTQ has been enacted. FYI, Most people here…

Looking at the map of the "LGBT rights by country or territory"[0] it is also not clear to me where people would suggest that the conferences be held. Zanzibar seems like one of the few places that would work, along with Botswana, and a few others. Some of the other countries that might work have completely different safety issue, regardless of your sexual orientation.

I think realistically, someone has the well meant opinion that these conferences should only be held in places where everyone can feel completely safe, and then just completely ignores reality. The unfortunate result is an effectual ban on any meetings in places like Africa or the Middle East, which is equally unreasonable and excluding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_terr...

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#129

Post by 0xDEAFBEAD »

mmtml wrote: post #22
ayhanfuat wrote: post #5

> What counts as “safety”? Which places in the world are truly safe for LGBTQIA+ community? How much of a city, or state, or country needs to be LGBTQIA+ hostile for the whole of it to be declared unworthy of PSF support? What a cheap shot. You don't need a safetyometer or something to determine that a country where same sex relationship is punishable by life imprisonment is unsafe for homosexuals or bisexuals.

I think the point was not properly made on their behalf. That said, do the organizers of the conference have any saying on the politics on their country and actually deserve to be punished because of them? I don't really think so.

Indeed. Would the PSF deny funds to an event in the USA due to Trump's Muslim ban? How about if a country has a big pro-Israel or anti-Israel protest that the PSF doesn't like -- is that a legitimate reason to deny funds for events in that country?

An event like DjangoCon in Tanzania is most likely going to be a tiny step forward for LGBT rights there. The organizers are probably more liberal than the average Tanzanian. Organizing a Python event is going to bring liberal westerners to the country, and generally import a bit of the culture of the international Python community, which is LGBT-friendly. I don't see a plausible story for how this DjangoCon could be a step back for LGBT rights.

If I was a leader of the PSF, my approach would be to not worry about this issue by default. If I heard a story through the grapevine about LGBT Pythonistas feeling unwelcome at the conference, I would have a friendly conversation with the organizers to see if there's anything which can be done. If it keeps happening, or if the organizers don't seem to care, that's the point at which I might suggest they seek funding elsewhere.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#130

Post by Xeamek »

DeathArrow wrote: post #103
Xeamek wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also judge if a given law is moral or valid, and take actions based on that. PSF has some moral views and they believe in some standards regardless of given country's law. Why are you so fixated on that?

>PSF has some moral views I thought the reason PSF exists is to promote Python, not to have political views.

The main reason of some entity's existence doesn't prevent it from having an additional views, that can even shape the way they execute their primary goal
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