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An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

pythonafrica.blogspot.com

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Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#111

Post by dist-epoch »

ayhanfuat wrote: post #5

> What counts as “safety”? Which places in the world are truly safe for LGBTQIA+ community? How much of a city, or state, or country needs to be LGBTQIA+ hostile for the whole of it to be declared unworthy of PSF support? What a cheap shot. You don't need a safetyometer or something to determine that a country where same sex relationship is punishable by life imprisonment is unsafe for homosexuals or bisexuals.

I wonder how the signers of this letter would feel if the Python conference was to be organized in a country where slavery was still legal. Would they say something like "don't worry, you are not a slave, it's ok to go there, nothing will happen to you"?

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#112

Post by orbital-decay »

rob74 wrote: post #79
keraf wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The claims of Zanzibar being unsafe for LGBTQIA+ communities is ridiculous. I live there and it's the most tolerant place I lived in so far. There are laws, but as long as you mind your own business and don't disturb others, you will be left alone. I've even been to same-sex weddings here (between foreigners of course, same-sex relationships are still taboo between locals but they do exist) and have gay friends livin…

> There are laws, but as long as you mind your own business and don't disturb others, you will be left alone. that's exactly what differentiates developed from developing countries: the rule of law. Not saying that it's perfect in developed countries (far from it), but at least you don't have to fear being arrested and face life imprisonment for something that's "generally tolerated", but in your special case wasn't…

How many places in Africa are sufficiently "developed" based on your definition? Should they postpone all Python conferences until they develop the rule of law?

People from the countries that implemented progressive policies sometimes show unreasonable arrogance by expecting the whole world to change instantly according to the freedoms they're used to at home.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#113

Post by Xeamek »

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #94
Xeamek wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Political pluralism should be the default. Agreed. But that doesn't mean that EVERY and ALL political view should be respected. You can have political pluralism in some restricted spectrum, but not accept things that are too extreeme. Not tolerating human rights abuse doesn't automatically lead to every aspect of life being overtaken by "us vs them" mentality. Claiming that it does is nothing more then a slippery sl…

Sure, if the DjangoCon Africa organizers had a history of human rights abuses, maybe that would be a reason to not fund them. But having a conference in Tanzania seems like a non-issue. Imagine Tommy Tuberville was on the PSF board, and he stonewalls PSF funding for any conference held in a place where abortion is legal. (According to Tommy, legal abortion is a gross human rights violation.) Do you think this is goin…

I would call that stupid because I don't agree with that view, but yes, he would have a right to not sponsor countries that have legal abortion. So what?

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#114

Post by DeathArrow »

Xeamek wrote: post #35
DeathArrow wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the same time, software should not be tied to politics. People should be able to hold different political views while taking part in software conferences.

>software should not be tied to politics. Why not? I mean, software is a product like any other. I for example wouldn't like if a group like ISIS was using my software, especially if they were using it to actively help them in commiting their crimes. If I could prevent that from happening, why shouldn't I?

>Why not

You have the right to hold you own political views, however you don't have the right to impose those on users of a particular software or participants in a software conference.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#115

Post by PurpleRamen »

keraf wrote: post #41
ayhanfuat wrote: post #5

> What counts as “safety”? Which places in the world are truly safe for LGBTQIA+ community? How much of a city, or state, or country needs to be LGBTQIA+ hostile for the whole of it to be declared unworthy of PSF support? What a cheap shot. You don't need a safetyometer or something to determine that a country where same sex relationship is punishable by life imprisonment is unsafe for homosexuals or bisexuals.

The claims of Zanzibar being unsafe for LGBTQIA+ communities is ridiculous. I live there and it's the most tolerant place I lived in so far. There are laws, but as long as you mind your own business and don't disturb others, you will be left alone. I've even been to same-sex weddings here (between foreigners of course, same-sex relationships are still taboo between locals but they do exist) and have gay friends livin…

> I live there and it's the most tolerant place I lived in so far. There are laws, but as long as you mind your own business and don't disturb others, you will be left alone.

As a local you know how to stay safe. Visitors from other places, other countries, even other cultures lack this knowledge. And you can't except someone who has only third-party-knowledge[1] to trust in the claims of locals with unknown agendas. Taking time to investigate is legit. I mean, it took them only one month to figure it out, and we don't know how much time they had before that september-meeting.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Tanzania

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#116

Post by culebron21 »

You can't demand people in other places to McDonaldize their conference to the latest intellectual fashion of the costal United States.

Demanding others to comply to your cultural standards (and denying cooperation otherwise), you actually strip yourself of the opportunity to spread them (cultural standards).

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#117

Post by isodev »

keraf wrote: post #41
ayhanfuat wrote: post #5

> What counts as “safety”? Which places in the world are truly safe for LGBTQIA+ community? How much of a city, or state, or country needs to be LGBTQIA+ hostile for the whole of it to be declared unworthy of PSF support? What a cheap shot. You don't need a safetyometer or something to determine that a country where same sex relationship is punishable by life imprisonment is unsafe for homosexuals or bisexuals.

The claims of Zanzibar being unsafe for LGBTQIA+ communities is ridiculous. I live there and it's the most tolerant place I lived in so far. There are laws, but as long as you mind your own business and don't disturb others, you will be left alone. I've even been to same-sex weddings here (between foreigners of course, same-sex relationships are still taboo between locals but they do exist) and have gay friends livin…

> Still, there are some things that should be avoided in public

Now read this again and imagine yourself in the shoes of someone who needs to suppress who they are in public, just so they don’t get stoned to death or make local narrow minded folk get a headache.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#118

Post by Xeamek »

DeathArrow wrote: post #105
Xeamek wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This type of discussions are about what should be , not about what is . Your comment doesn't add anything. In fact, it does about as much sense as randomly stating "water is wet". Technically true, but so what?

>This type of discussions are about what should be Generally, citizens of a country and lawmakers decide what should be, not PSF or random commenters on the Internet.

Slavery was decided to be good, until it wasn't.

Morality doesn't exist and everything that is law is good by definition?

What are you even saying

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#119

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

Xeamek wrote: post #45
DeathArrow wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But that's the whole problem: they shouldn't have to hide it in the first place. What does that have to do with Python? You can chose to respect the laws in the country you are in, or not.

You can also judge if a given law is moral or valid, and take actions based on that. PSF has some moral views and they believe in some standards regardless of given country's law. Why are you so fixated on that?

Sure, that's totally fine.

However, what is the impact here?

Basically the volunteers for a Python conference needed to write an open letter as the conference didn't happen.

Like, if the PSF don't want conferences in places where same-sex relationships are prohibited, then they should just make that a policy. Personally, I would disagree with that policy as I don't see how Python relates to said policies, but it would be fine.

What's not fine is relatively poor volunteers being forced to guarantee major expenses for a conference because the PSF couldn't make a decision.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#120

Post by LightHugger »

gwervc wrote: post #100
Xeamek wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need LGBT hunt squads. All you need is the fact that a gay couple holding hands or kissing publicly is unsafe. "Then just don't kiss publicly". Sure, hiding one's sexuality isn't that hard, especially for a short period of time. But that's the whole problem: they shouldn't have to hide it in the first place. Home people might know you, but in home country you are against only bigoted individuals, not the en…

> But that's the whole problem: they shouldn't have to hide it in the first place. In Rome do as the Romans do. Cultural norms differ by countries and should be respected. Also this kind of indignation is very selective, I've never read a software fundation complaining about it being unsafe to travel as a christian in Marocco (where owing a bible is forbidden by law) for example.

Based on limited research, owning and selling bibles is allowed there but missionary work is not allowed.
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