An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation • Hacker News Board

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#261

Post by leadingthenet » Wed, Dec 06, 2023, 3:28 PM UTC

tuetuopay wrote: post #251

rbanffy wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But that should not be a reason to not fund conferences in those countries How would you feel about the PSF (or any other society you sponsor) helping conferences in places you'd not be able to attend because you simply would not be safe there? I understand there are good reasons for funding conferences in countries that would be hostile to many PSF members, because not all people who'd attend to such conferences a…

> How would you feel about the PSF (or any other society you sponsor) helping conferences in places you'd not be able to attend because you simply would not be safe there? I would feel very good, because those places are often ignored from such events. A conference in a place is done first for the locals. Saying to all of africa "sorry you can't have a conference this year because the westerners that have 10 a year w…

I agree with you, but conversely, the organisers shouldn't feel entitled to Western funding either, in that case.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#262

Post by OfSanguineFire » Wed, Dec 06, 2023, 3:31 PM UTC

gwervc wrote: post #100

Xeamek wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need LGBT hunt squads. All you need is the fact that a gay couple holding hands or kissing publicly is unsafe. "Then just don't kiss publicly". Sure, hiding one's sexuality isn't that hard, especially for a short period of time. But that's the whole problem: they shouldn't have to hide it in the first place. Home people might know you, but in home country you are against only bigoted individuals, not the en…

> But that's the whole problem: they shouldn't have to hide it in the first place. In Rome do as the Romans do. Cultural norms differ by countries and should be respected. Also this kind of indignation is very selective, I've never read a software fundation complaining about it being unsafe to travel as a christian in Marocco (where owing a bible is forbidden by law) for example.

Owning a Bible is not forbidden by law in Morocco. (If there is legislation, you are misinterpreting its scope and intent.) Morocco has its own Roman Catholic jurisdiction[0]. There are even Roman Catholic monasteries/convents in the country that do philanthropic work with rural communities, on the condition that they don’t try to openly convert locals, and of course they all possess Bibles and liturgical books for their services.

This is something that even tourists are often aware of, because in Tangier the Anglican parish[1] is a popular tourist attraction. The Agadir Roman Catholic parish is attended by also some of the loads of German/French/Italian pensioners who spend winters there.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_in_Morocco

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Andrew's_Church%2C_Tangier

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#263

Post by leadingthenet » Wed, Dec 06, 2023, 3:34 PM UTC

biorach wrote: post #148

rob74 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are laws, but as long as you mind your own business and don't disturb others, you will be left alone. that's exactly what differentiates developed from developing countries: the rule of law. Not saying that it's perfect in developed countries (far from it), but at least you don't have to fear being arrested and face life imprisonment for something that's "generally tolerated", but in your special case wasn't…

The distinction between developed and developing countries you think is so clearcut is actually not so clear "the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of sodomy laws in Bowers v. Hardwick in 1986. However, in 2003, the Supreme Court changed opinion and reversed the decision with Lawrence v. Texas, invalidating sodomy laws in the remaining 14 states: Alabama, Florida, Idaho, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississi…

That looks like the rule of law working as expected to me?

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#264

Post by asylteltine » Wed, Dec 06, 2023, 3:34 PM UTC

pierat wrote: post #239

asylteltine wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people are so used to their western privilege they can’t fathom the idea of a culture not accepting things like being gay. It’s really not hard

Privilege? No, most African and Middle Eastern governments just have shitty governments based on an even worse religion. At least Western governments have the idea of Universal Human Rights ( https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma... ) And being 'accepted' or not is wholly different than 'executed' or 'jailed for life'. And for me, it's simple: don't go to most of Africa or anywhere in the Middl…

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Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#265

Post by asylteltine » Wed, Dec 06, 2023, 3:35 PM UTC

wyldfire wrote: post #240

asylteltine wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you must understand that there are countries that have different cultures and that’s just the reality irrespective of being right or wrong. If you don’t feel safe, don’t go. I don’t go to Arab countries at all and my life is just fine.

> If you don’t feel safe, don’t go sure, but then shouldn't organizations like PSF take that into account when considering funding? by sponsoring the event they're endorsing it. so you could also see how it's not that great to endorse an event where you should warn attendees "hey don't gay it up bro they will beat you down here. just hide your shameful activity until you get back home."

Should the PSF not fund minority groups or people because of lgbt? Obviously not that would be ridiculous. Why does lgbt need to be held over every single damn thing?

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#266

Post by OfSanguineFire » Wed, Dec 06, 2023, 3:38 PM UTC

plufz wrote: post #21

anonylizard wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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Would they come after you if you brought your same sex partner? If you had a rainbow pin? Does it really matter where the exact limit goes? Would you feel safe being in a country where your sexuality was illegal? No way I would take that chance for a python conference.

> Would you feel safe being in a country where your sexuality was illegal?

The answer seems to be yes for at least some number of travelers. I have traveled the Muslim world and sub-Saharan Africa extensively and I have met plenty of fellow travelers who are gay, whether individuals or even gay couples. The couples simply don’t show affection in public, but heterosexual couples shouldn’t either. Even sharing a room as two men or two women is no issue, because the locals will assume you are friends unless you explicitly, deliberately, tell them otherwise.

And twice when I got the contact info of local Europeans living in the region who were known for extending hospitality to any travelers coming through, I arrived to find that it was a gay couple who had been there for decades. I must say, this whole thread is full of uninformed stereotypes, and posters would benefit from firsthand experience of the world.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#267

Post by tuetuopay » Wed, Dec 06, 2023, 3:38 PM UTC

leadingthenet wrote: post #261

tuetuopay wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How would you feel about the PSF (or any other society you sponsor) helping conferences in places you'd not be able to attend because you simply would not be safe there? I would feel very good, because those places are often ignored from such events. A conference in a place is done first for the locals. Saying to all of africa "sorry you can't have a conference this year because the westerners that have 10 a year w…

I agree with you, but conversely, the organisers shouldn't feel entitled to Western funding either, in that case.

Is the PSF western "by design" or "de facto", the latter being the foundation having "accidentally" only western people on board? In theory the PSF should be worldwide with people from everywhere. Otherwise we should call it "EU+US PSF".

However the reality is, it is staffed by westerners and funded by western companies. So it's a de-facto western foundation.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#268

Post by kabanda1 » Wed, Dec 06, 2023, 3:39 PM UTC

bitcurious wrote: post #230

kabanda1 wrote: post #96

My guess is that this has much to do with how much they get out of Africa. It seems like they don't see the benefit of funding those conferences. About LBGTQ This looks to me like the Western behaviour where they sanction the whole country to death because they don't agree with policies of people in power. I am an African. And I live in a country where such laws targeting LGBTQ has been enacted. FYI, Most people here…

> FYI, Most people here have no idea what LGBTQ means and those who do don't give a damn. Those leading the making of laws and noise making are just populists after their bread. How do you reconcile these two statements? Populists by definition appeal to public sentiment, to the detriment of principals or morality. If no one cares, why are they wasting their time? It's like the old joke "no one goes there, it's too c…

Maybe a wrong word to use. But politicians claim to be representing the people's voice in ceating those laws is not entirely correct.

In most African countries, people are still uncomfortable with LGBTQ, and the general show of love in public but not hostile to the extent of enacted laws

Remember most LGBTQ activism is sponsored by the west, so politicians use that to heat up the population about family, bill gates, blah, blah, that's where I used the word populism.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#269

Post by diiolk » Wed, Dec 06, 2023, 3:40 PM UTC

isodev wrote: post #207

keraf wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> out of respect for the local population. You're a guest, there are some cultural do's and dont's and holding hands in public is one of the latter, even for heterosexual couples. I don't hold hands with my girlfriend in public even though it'd be totally safe to do so, it's disrespectful because it's not the local custom to do so. In contrast, many of my LBGT friends in European capitals fear to show affection with…

And what of trans folks? Are they supposed to not go to the toilet for 3 days so they don't offend your culture? Or when there is small talk, should I change "my husband" into "my wife" just so I don't upset the locals? I hope you see how ridiculous this "just don't show it" is, especially coming from folks who think LGBTQ+ is all about kissing and holing hands. A global event should not be hosted in a country, state…

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Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#270

Post by johannes1234321 » Wed, Dec 06, 2023, 3:41 PM UTC

kabanda1 wrote: post #132

isodev wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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If a Muslim sympathetic to Palestinians go to Germany today, they will not declare it at the airport or in a coffee shop.

While stating it at either won't give you any serious trouble.

Depending on where you state that, in what social situation, you might get all sorts of reactions, from antisemic support, to more nuanced support or rejection, but you won't lose your job, won't be injailed, aren't threatened by death penalty or any form of violence (while amount of violence against Jews, by some subcultures, is rising ...)

And yes, political figures like Greta Thunberg are criticized for their statements. But a) it's a political statement by some political figure and b) there aren't threats but newspapers etc. dismissing the statements in articles. Which again is very different from the threats towards gays in different regions of the world.