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An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

pythonafrica.blogspot.com

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Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#211

Post by cjfd »

kabanda1 wrote: post #96

My guess is that this has much to do with how much they get out of Africa. It seems like they don't see the benefit of funding those conferences. About LBGTQ This looks to me like the Western behaviour where they sanction the whole country to death because they don't agree with policies of people in power. I am an African. And I live in a country where such laws targeting LGBTQ has been enacted. FYI, Most people here…

"sanction the whole country to death because they don't agree with policies of people in power." 'Sanctioning to death' is perhaps not reasonable but, still, there should be standards for dealing with countries. Let us consider a different example. Without standards you end up with buying cheap goods made by children who work 12 hours a day on Saturday combined with driving your own child to violin lessons on Sunday. Not to mention that the children who work 12 hours a day are competing with properly paid adults in other countries.

To get back to LGBTQ rights, there also should be some standards. The standards should perhaps not be as high as western nations would like but they should exclude the worst places in the world. The story sounds like the PSF had at the time not yet decided what standards should be in place for subsidizing conferences. They should correct this omission because keeping a conference organization with this kind of uncertainty is not good.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#212

Post by niam »

arp242 wrote: post #189
niam wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vibes on the ground are not fact. Actionable law is. I agree with the people saying that this is in-effect a wholesale rejection of conferences in Africa, and that we should be mindful of that and work on a compromise. But how is it sensible to expect organizations to act on so-called "facts on the ground"? If those facts haven't already been leveraged to meaningfully affect policy, then there's a burdening question…

> Vibes on the ground are not fact. Actionable law is. Is the law actionable? Is it enforced? What do the courts do? How does the police act? There's a million factors that radically change what "the law" says. Weed is illegal in the Netherlands. Always has been. Never been legalized. Going by the "facts" of the law would lead to some views of the country that do not align with any sort of meaningful reality. > But h…

> Is the law actionable?

Yup. I'm pretty willing to defer to what human rights organizations and the country itself say about their laws.

> Weed is illegal in the Netherlands.

Which:

1. is something that should change if it's an inaccurate reflection of the country

2. is nonetheless a far discussion from (what should be) a fundamental human right

> If you don't know the reality of the situation then maybe you shouldn't act at all because you're ignorant about the entire thing?

The Python Software Foundation didn't act on enabling this conference; that's precisely why the OP exists. Your argument, if you're defending the OP, is instead that we should act on our supposed "ignorance" in the face of laws which say one thing and internet people say another thing.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#213

Post by jdiff »

em-bee wrote: post #200
jdiff wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should a conference be held somewhere where people will be excluded by virtue of their existence?

because that would limit conferences in a lot of places. people everywhere should be able to hold their own conferences. the question is, should the PSF fund them? that should be answerable with a clear yes or no in a timely manner, and not like it happened. holding a conference named pycon requires permission from the PSF trademark workgroup. that permission has obviously been given. giving such a permission but the…

I don't disagree with any of this. People in those areas should be able to hold their own conferences, and should get questions on funding answered in a timely manner. The point I wanted to make was that there are valid reasons to not hold (or fund) a conference based on local laws.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#214

Post by rbanffy »

ploum wrote: post #163
_cenw wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This looks to me like the Western behaviour where they sanction the whole country to death because they don't agree with policies of people in power. If your policies put people at risk, limit to participation is a natural consequence. There is no conspiracy here. >I am an African. And I live in a country where such laws targeting LGBTQ has been enacted. FYI, Most people here have no idea what LGBTQ means and those…

You are perfectly right that asking people to not care about the laws of a country is problematic. For personal safety and also as a moral stand point. But that should not be a reason to not fund conferences in those countries, conferences which are a way to learn, to discover new things. What do you think about conferences organizers, of every country, having to put on their website a little explanation of the laws…

> But that should not be a reason to not fund conferences in those countries

How would you feel about the PSF (or any other society you sponsor) helping conferences in places you'd not be able to attend because you simply would not be safe there? I understand there are good reasons for funding conferences in countries that would be hostile to many PSF members, because not all people who'd attend to such conferences agree with the intolerance (by law or by custom).

> "In our country, the law forbid XXX"

I would not wish the PSF to be seen as supportive of such behavior.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#215

Post by przemub »

jlg23 wrote: post #183

I think the problem is also that a lot of committees are too detached from some of the groups they deal with. I once was invited, as a member of a European drug policy group, to a FSF conference in London with the aim to get more grassroots organisations to use FOSS - flights and hotels paid for by the FSF. When there, we were informed that we could later send our receipts for hotels and flights to the chair of FSF E…

That's interesting. I used to regularly donate to FSFE but their weird relationship with FSF prompted me to stop recently.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#216

Post by AshamedCaptain »

cjfd wrote: post #211
kabanda1 wrote: post #96

My guess is that this has much to do with how much they get out of Africa. It seems like they don't see the benefit of funding those conferences. About LBGTQ This looks to me like the Western behaviour where they sanction the whole country to death because they don't agree with policies of people in power. I am an African. And I live in a country where such laws targeting LGBTQ has been enacted. FYI, Most people here…

"sanction the whole country to death because they don't agree with policies of people in power." 'Sanctioning to death' is perhaps not reasonable but, still, there should be standards for dealing with countries. Let us consider a different example. Without standards you end up with buying cheap goods made by children who work 12 hours a day on Saturday combined with driving your own child to violin lessons on Sunday.…

"And why do you feel so strong about these policies? It's not like they're going to ask if you are a children when you arrive at the airport."

Just to also point how the grandparent comment's remark kind of misses the point.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#218

Post by asylteltine »

Karellen wrote: post #203
Longhanks wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Can't you just... not? So, if someone attends with their partner, are you suggesting they "just... not" show any affection towards them while they're there? No hugging, no hand-holding, no pecks on the cheek? No resting a head on a shoulder? "Stating your sexual preference" is more nuanced that standing at passport control and blurting out "I'm gay!". Not stating it can involve changing the whole way you behave aro…

Yes, you must understand that there are countries that have different cultures and that’s just the reality irrespective of being right or wrong. If you don’t feel safe, don’t go. I don’t go to Arab countries at all and my life is just fine.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#219

Post by rbanffy »

pierat wrote: post #198
ploum wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are perfectly right that asking people to not care about the laws of a country is problematic. For personal safety and also as a moral stand point. But that should not be a reason to not fund conferences in those countries, conferences which are a way to learn, to discover new things. What do you think about conferences organizers, of every country, having to put on their website a little explanation of the laws…

There's a HUGE difference between: "Our country taxes alcohol stupidly high, and nudity is 100% OK" And "Women are second class citizens and owned by their male counterparts. And we put gay people and trans people to death." As much as I hate saying it, it doesn't matter who the individuals in a country are, and how tolerant they are. The laws by the ruling power are what you have to follow. And fuck no going to a co…

Last time I checked, as an apostate, I'd have a death penalty waiting for me in many countries that operate under such religious laws.

Also, if they know I am an apostate, and they ask me that at the border, I'll have to choose between death because I am an apostate, and death by a likely more painful method because I am an apostate and I also lied to a customs officer.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#220

Post by VoodooJuJu »

andrewstuart wrote: post #6

Why do “open letters” get so much more respect and attention than an ordinary whining email? The headline “A whining email to ” would be ignored. Change it to “open letter” and it’s instant gravitas. Seems to be the same sort of magic words as ”considered harmful”……. instantly credible and worthy of consideration. I really should frame all of my grumbles about the state of the world as “open letters” so people pay at…

Letters can be a lot of things.

Sometimes letters are about love, sometimes they're insulting, sometimes they're ambivalent, sometimes they're begging, sometimes they're threatening. So letters can be a lot of things, but they're fundamentally letters, and some letters are open, like this one.

The authors here called their letter an open letter because that's what it is. If you think it's just a whining email, that's a you thing, that's your own personal interpretation of the letter. I personally would not call it a whining email. It's a letter with people raising their genuine heartfelt thoughts.

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