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An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

pythonafrica.blogspot.com

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Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#251

Post by tuetuopay »

rbanffy wrote: post #214
ploum wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are perfectly right that asking people to not care about the laws of a country is problematic. For personal safety and also as a moral stand point. But that should not be a reason to not fund conferences in those countries, conferences which are a way to learn, to discover new things. What do you think about conferences organizers, of every country, having to put on their website a little explanation of the laws…

> But that should not be a reason to not fund conferences in those countries How would you feel about the PSF (or any other society you sponsor) helping conferences in places you'd not be able to attend because you simply would not be safe there? I understand there are good reasons for funding conferences in countries that would be hostile to many PSF members, because not all people who'd attend to such conferences a…

> How would you feel about the PSF (or any other society you sponsor) helping conferences in places you'd not be able to attend because you simply would not be safe there?

I would feel very good, because those places are often ignored from such events. A conference in a place is done first for the locals. Saying to all of africa "sorry you can't have a conference this year because the westerners that have 10 a year would not be able to come" is what would make me feel bad. Add on top of that coming to western conferences from africa is usually way too expensive for the median income there. Oh and travel issue for passports when getting into the US or Europe.

I've been reading this whole thread as "westerners being entitled to go to an african conference, run by and for people in africa"

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#252

Post by pierat »

keraf wrote: post #238
isodev wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what of trans folks? Are they supposed to not go to the toilet for 3 days so they don't offend your culture? Or when there is small talk, should I change "my husband" into "my wife" just so I don't upset the locals? I hope you see how ridiculous this "just don't show it" is, especially coming from folks who think LGBTQ+ is all about kissing and holing hands. A global event should not be hosted in a country, state…

As said, Zanzibaris are very tolerant, they will let you exist in peace regardless of how you look, your gender, sexual orientation, religious believes or nationality, they just don't care. I know of trans people spending their holiday here without any incident, at most it was just their taxi driver being curious but at no point they felt unsafe. Don't abuse their tolerance and respect their customs. The same way you…

[flagged]

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#253

Post by leadingthenet »

wyldfire wrote: post #240
asylteltine wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you must understand that there are countries that have different cultures and that’s just the reality irrespective of being right or wrong. If you don’t feel safe, don’t go. I don’t go to Arab countries at all and my life is just fine.

> If you don’t feel safe, don’t go sure, but then shouldn't organizations like PSF take that into account when considering funding? by sponsoring the event they're endorsing it. so you could also see how it's not that great to endorse an event where you should warn attendees "hey don't gay it up bro they will beat you down here. just hide your shameful activity until you get back home."

Everything does not need to get politicised. A programming conference is one such example.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#254

Post by ttyprintk »

pierat wrote: post #239
asylteltine wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people are so used to their western privilege they can’t fathom the idea of a culture not accepting things like being gay. It’s really not hard

Privilege? No, most African and Middle Eastern governments just have shitty governments based on an even worse religion. At least Western governments have the idea of Universal Human Rights ( https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma... ) And being 'accepted' or not is wholly different than 'executed' or 'jailed for life'. And for me, it's simple: don't go to most of Africa or anywhere in the Middl…

You’re both right, because the definition of white privilege does include “White people become more likely to move through the world with an expectation that their needs be readily met.”

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#255

Post by Tao3300 »

LightHugger wrote: post #120
gwervc wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But that's the whole problem: they shouldn't have to hide it in the first place. In Rome do as the Romans do. Cultural norms differ by countries and should be respected. Also this kind of indignation is very selective, I've never read a software fundation complaining about it being unsafe to travel as a christian in Marocco (where owing a bible is forbidden by law) for example.

Based on limited research, owning and selling bibles is allowed there but missionary work is not allowed.

How many pounds of Bible do I have to have on me for it to count as intent to evangelize?

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#256

Post by dragonwriter »

asylteltine wrote: post #227
Longhanks wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if a stranger asks you "have you ever consumed any drugs" you also just cannot help it and make a list of any and all abuse you might have participated in at the other end of the world? Is reality really that hard for some people? I geniunely don't understand how navigating society can be so difficult?

Some people are so used to their western privilege they can’t fathom the idea of a culture not accepting things like being gay. It’s really not hard

I assure you that virtually no one, least of all LGBTQIA+ activists, has trouble fathoming the idea of a culture not accepting deviation from cisheteronormative standards.

Even in most western countries, tolerance for that is weak now, and was absent in living memory.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#257

Post by OfSanguineFire »

dist-epoch wrote: post #111
ayhanfuat wrote: post #5

> What counts as “safety”? Which places in the world are truly safe for LGBTQIA+ community? How much of a city, or state, or country needs to be LGBTQIA+ hostile for the whole of it to be declared unworthy of PSF support? What a cheap shot. You don't need a safetyometer or something to determine that a country where same sex relationship is punishable by life imprisonment is unsafe for homosexuals or bisexuals.

I wonder how the signers of this letter would feel if the Python conference was to be organized in a country where slavery was still legal. Would they say something like "don't worry, you are not a slave, it's ok to go there, nothing will happen to you"?

Slavery is still de facto legal in Mauritania (ostensibly outlawed back in the 1980s but still omnipresent), and foreigners go there all the time. Overlanding from Europe to West Africa is popular. States where slavery is legal, or remains de facto legal as in Mauritania, generally have had a system for who becomes a slave, and it isn’t a posh foreign visitor. It is prior slaves’ progeny, prisoners of war, or purchase on the market from sellers selling the former two groups.

In fact, it isn’t just posh foreigners. Many Senegalese people go to work in Nouakchott for a few years, save up money, and then return home. They aren’t worried about being enslaved because, again, the slavery system isn’t about them.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#258

Post by jzb »

ealexhudson wrote: post #247
jzb wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, just dug that up myself. I still feel that you ask for funding and then plan the event, if the funding is crucial, but clearly the PSF set an expectation that it didn't live up to. Note the same FAQ, though, says this: "There is no set maximum, but grants are awarded with consideration for the annual PSF grant budget and that events/sprints will be virtual...with that in mind are willing to consider up to $2,50…

It's a bit chicken and egg though: I would expect that a grant would be much more likely to be granted for an event that had a decent amount of groundwork already done? For new events especially, you'd want to see some commitment.

I'd want to see a plan, for sure. I would, in the place of the PSF folks, not want to be handed a "this is already in motion, and we are depending on funding so you better say yes."

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#259

Post by ttyprintk »

wyldfire wrote: post #245
asylteltine wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people are so used to their western privilege they can’t fathom the idea of a culture not accepting things like being gay. It’s really not hard

Fathoming it is how we got here. That's the easy part. But the hard part is the tension between supporting people in developing nations while not endorsing their policies. Here in the US there are states that, sadly, aren't that supportive of human rights. And rather than handwring over "should we hold an event there?" they just never consider those places. Because there's no such tension.

Well, Utah made great strides between 2016 and 2021, and maybe by holding PyCon there, it rehabilitated their reputation a little.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#260

Post by Tao3300 »

saltwatercowboy wrote: post #31
anonylizard wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You aren't wrong. Tanzania != Malaysia, as another commenter seemed to think. Their version of Sharia is nowhere near as strict. Incidents of violence are the product of opportunity and generally perpetrated through in-group policing. Westerners and other African travellers are less exposed, so in the case of an LGBT developer from the US travelling to Zanzibar (which is also a very special case relative to the rest…

Heh... if the argument is coming down to "yeah, but in their version of Sharia", I'm thinking maybe it's not such a good idea.
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