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An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

pythonafrica.blogspot.com

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Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#231

Post by pierat »

rbanffy wrote: post #219
pierat wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a HUGE difference between: "Our country taxes alcohol stupidly high, and nudity is 100% OK" And "Women are second class citizens and owned by their male counterparts. And we put gay people and trans people to death." As much as I hate saying it, it doesn't matter who the individuals in a country are, and how tolerant they are. The laws by the ruling power are what you have to follow. And fuck no going to a co…

Last time I checked, as an apostate, I'd have a death penalty waiting for me in many countries that operate under such religious laws. Also, if they know I am an apostate, and they ask me that at the border, I'll have to choose between death because I am an apostate, and death by a likely more painful method because I am an apostate and I also lied to a customs officer.

[flagged]

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#232

Post by niam »

grotorea wrote: post #202
niam wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vibes on the ground are not fact. Actionable law is. I agree with the people saying that this is in-effect a wholesale rejection of conferences in Africa, and that we should be mindful of that and work on a compromise. But how is it sensible to expect organizations to act on so-called "facts on the ground"? If those facts haven't already been leveraged to meaningfully affect policy, then there's a burdening question…

> Vibes on the ground are not fact. Actionable law is. I really think this is a view that only makes sense in stable countries with strong rule of law, which I don't think is the case for most of the world. And even in the First World. Are Americans in states that legalized marijuana afraid of a random cop arresting them due to it being federally illegal? Is the average European concerned of being arrested for movie…

I agree that law isn't enough; it's not the end of the discussion, surely. But I feel it is the trunk that we should branch from.

If the law is ineffectual: the persuasive burden rests on the people saying so, not on the people reading the law as it exists on the books. Strong/weak rule of law could act against either side here.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#233

Post by jzb »

pradn wrote: post #223
jzb wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What strikes me most about this is that, apparently by the timeline described in the open letter, the conference organizers planned the event with the expectation they'd get funding and asked for the funding fewer than five months before the event. That seems like extremely poor planning from my perspective. Maybe that's normal for events given money by PSF, I dunno, but "we've already decided to do this so hurry up…

I don’t see why it would take more than one PSF board meeting to approve funding for an event. Even if the board had questions, the follow-up is supposed to happen quickly. Several months to approve $9000 is silly. That’s probably just the catering budget for a 3-day, 200-person conference in the Bay Area - let alone for a conference for all of Africa’s Python community.

The FAQ[1] asks for 6 weeks before an event, so I suppose that's fair. That still seems like poor planning, though -- clearly the event was planned the the presumption that the funding would be approved. What would this open letter have looked like if the ask had been turned down altogether?

IMO the order of operations should be 1) ask for funding, 2) plan the event, not the other way around.

[1] https://www.python.org/psf/grants/faq/

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#234

Post by rossdavidh »

TOMDM wrote: post #170

> At a meeting earlier this year, the PSF expressed concern that barely 16% of grants go to African communities. The continent of Africa makes up 17.89% of the world's population (based on recent UN estimates), well within the margin of error of that 16% allocation I'd expect. Am I missing something? Are there country's that the PSF doesn't work with at all that would skew this?

I would think that the money would "go further", and the impact of getting the grant vs. not getting it would be greater, in most of Africa compared to, say, the Bay Area in California. Not the only basis for consideration, but one might think that the PSF should be prioritizing places where, if they give a grant, it makes a large positive impact on the outcome. I'm no expert, but it seems plausible that this might be more often the case in Africa than elsewhere.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#235

Post by mmtml »

test6554 wrote: post #209

Once upon a time, we wanted something nice but couldn't afford it. Someone gave us money but we wanted the money faster so we complained and publicly shamed the people who gave it to us. The next time we asked for money they didn't help at all and we don't know why. The end.

[flagged]

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#236

Post by grotorea »

dijit wrote: post #181
Planktonne wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really a gambit so much as a fact.

I can pick my nose and it's not a political statement. I just needed to pick my nose. I can make a cli tool to deploy something faster and with the boilerplate logging/monitoring. What political stance am I taking? Do you think I intentionally made one? Or is this the same as "silence is violence"- by NOT making a statement that I am making a statement? Honestly, it's exhausting. I just want to help where I can perso…

> I can make a cli tool to deploy something faster and with the boilerplate logging/monitoring.

> What political stance am I taking?

That this thing should be made more efficient for any of multiple reasons like "boss told me to and I should obey him in this". And you'd just have to find someone arguing technological deployment should be restricted to protect jobs to confirm this is political.

> Do you think I intentionally made one?

No.

> Or is this the same as "silence is violence"- by NOT making a statement that I am making a statement?

It can be so. You're still making a choice to ignore the situation and that has consequences too.

> Honestly, it's exhausting. I just want to help where I can personally and have fun, it's not deeper than that.

Yeah.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#237

Post by jzb »

sampo wrote: post #229
jzb wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What strikes me most about this is that, apparently by the timeline described in the open letter, the conference organizers planned the event with the expectation they'd get funding and asked for the funding fewer than five months before the event. That seems like extremely poor planning from my perspective. Maybe that's normal for events given money by PSF, I dunno, but "we've already decided to do this so hurry up…

> asked for the funding fewer than five months before the event The Python Software Foundation says that they need less than 6 weeks for processing grant applications: https://www.python.org/psf/grants/

Yeah, just dug that up myself. I still feel that you ask for funding and then plan the event, if the funding is crucial, but clearly the PSF set an expectation that it didn't live up to.

Note the same FAQ, though, says this: "There is no set maximum, but grants are awarded with consideration for the annual PSF grant budget and that events/sprints will be virtual...with that in mind are willing to consider up to $2,500 per request for larger virtual events."

My guess is that this FAQ needs an update now that the PSF is once again willing to fund in-person events.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#238

Post by keraf »

isodev wrote: post #207
keraf wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> out of respect for the local population. You're a guest, there are some cultural do's and dont's and holding hands in public is one of the latter, even for heterosexual couples. I don't hold hands with my girlfriend in public even though it'd be totally safe to do so, it's disrespectful because it's not the local custom to do so. In contrast, many of my LBGT friends in European capitals fear to show affection with…

And what of trans folks? Are they supposed to not go to the toilet for 3 days so they don't offend your culture? Or when there is small talk, should I change "my husband" into "my wife" just so I don't upset the locals? I hope you see how ridiculous this "just don't show it" is, especially coming from folks who think LGBTQ+ is all about kissing and holing hands. A global event should not be hosted in a country, state…

As said, Zanzibaris are very tolerant, they will let you exist in peace regardless of how you look, your gender, sexual orientation, religious believes or nationality, they just don't care. I know of trans people spending their holiday here without any incident, at most it was just their taxi driver being curious but at no point they felt unsafe.

Don't abuse their tolerance and respect their customs. The same way you'd expect someone to respect you and your house rules if you invite them home. You just have to accept that people live differently in different parts of the world, maybe it's not them that are intolerant.

I'm convinced a global tech event can be hosted in Zanzibar where everyone is welcome and safe.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#239

Post by pierat »

asylteltine wrote: post #227
Longhanks wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if a stranger asks you "have you ever consumed any drugs" you also just cannot help it and make a list of any and all abuse you might have participated in at the other end of the world? Is reality really that hard for some people? I geniunely don't understand how navigating society can be so difficult?

Some people are so used to their western privilege they can’t fathom the idea of a culture not accepting things like being gay. It’s really not hard

Privilege? No, most African and Middle Eastern governments just have shitty governments based on an even worse religion.

At least Western governments have the idea of Universal Human Rights ( https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma... )

And being 'accepted' or not is wholly different than 'executed' or 'jailed for life'.

And for me, it's simple: don't go to most of Africa or anywhere in the Middle East. They're shitholes not worthy of my money or my presence.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#240

Post by wyldfire »

asylteltine wrote: post #218
Karellen wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can't you just... not? So, if someone attends with their partner, are you suggesting they "just... not" show any affection towards them while they're there? No hugging, no hand-holding, no pecks on the cheek? No resting a head on a shoulder? "Stating your sexual preference" is more nuanced that standing at passport control and blurting out "I'm gay!". Not stating it can involve changing the whole way you behave aro…

Yes, you must understand that there are countries that have different cultures and that’s just the reality irrespective of being right or wrong. If you don’t feel safe, don’t go. I don’t go to Arab countries at all and my life is just fine.

> If you don’t feel safe, don’t go

sure, but then shouldn't organizations like PSF take that into account when considering funding? by sponsoring the event they're endorsing it. so you could also see how it's not that great to endorse an event where you should warn attendees "hey don't gay it up bro they will beat you down here. just hide your shameful activity until you get back home."

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