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The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

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Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#531

Post by megous »

YZF wrote: post #476
uluyol wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Palestinians are not intermittently but continuously oppressed. Israel can stop it at any time but chooses not to, hence the retaliation by the Palestinians. What Israel is doing now is not retaliation but doubling down on their standard M.O. You've got the history backwards, friend.

This is factually and morally wrong. - Israel is not intermittently but continuously under attack since 1948 for its mere existence. - Since when does being "oppressed" give anyone the right to launch rockets on civilians and commit suicide bombings? There are many people in this world who are much worse off than Palestinians who would never imagine engaging in these sorts of acts. - The Hamas wants Jews erased. It d…

Oh, mere existence. :)

Sorry, this will not work anymore. More and more people now are learning about the massacres in '47/'48, Nakba, ethnic cleansing, violations of UN resolutions, or even the original partition plan, war crimes, constant illegal settler harrasment and land grabs, and the disgusting nature of the oppression, political machinations of the Israel's ruling class, etc.

Ivoking morality or rights when the occupier doesn't respect either, will just keep working only on the most gullible.

Israel is powerful, and has well established PR machine and lobbying, but the tide of public opinion can turn against it eventually, if it will push too hard.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#532

Post by jacquesm »

edanm wrote: post #403
jacquesm wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't particularly value an Israeli life any higher than I do a Palestinian one. Palestinians have died in larger numbers, just not as suddenly and that's what makes the difference in terms of the response but dead is dead, no matter whether you're the statistic of the day or a victim in a large scale attack. Hamas has given Israel a good reason to strike back but not indiscriminately and in retribution you have to…

First, I want to emphatically agree - an Israeli life isn't worth any more than a Palestinian life. > Hamas has given Israel a good reason to strike back but not indiscriminately and in retribution I want to argue against your framing here, because that is not how Israelis see things. At least the normal ones don't think of it as "striking back in retribution" or anything like that. The thing is, Hamas has declared w…

> what do you think Israel should do given this current situation?

I think the answer to that is to first figure out what kind of vision people have a for a long term view of what that part of the world will look like. If the vision is that at some point all these people are going to have to live together and mix freely then we are already on the wrong pathway for 70 years. If the vision is that Israel is forever going to be a state surrounded by enemies that slowly expands by virtue of being a forward post of the West with nukes then that is effectively condemning Israel and its citizens to pawns on the geopolitical chessboard.

It's possible that 'the end of oil' will somehow tip the scales in Israels' favor, but it is also very well possible that at some point the Arab world will become more of a nuclear power than they are today. And in a world where 'might makes right' and proliferation worries dominate a lot of these discussions the current situation is highly unstable.

If Israel doesn't manage to get to the first kind of solution in the foreseeable future I fear that in the longer term is may cease to exist entirely.

By the way: thank you for the respectful discussion on this extremely sensitive subject. Given some of the incredible garbage in this thread it is a welcome relief.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#533

Post by jacquesm »

nec4b wrote: post #456
jacquesm wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Israeli viewpoint in some circles is that the number would then be higher. And they may well be right, but that doesn't mean that the situation can continue the way it has been going for the last 20 years. The fanatics on both sides will have to be brought to heel.

What would you do if you were the leader of Israel? They have pulled out of Gaza in 2005. Hamas goal is destruction of Israel, I doesn't want any peace talks.

I would ask myself first where I want Israel to be in two centuries and then steer course for that even if that means losses in the short term. Because long term this won't end well if there isn't a real change of course even though in the short term it looks as if Israel has the upper hand.

Note that 'The State of Israel' is not synonymous with the Jewish people - even though there are a lot of people on both sides of this who seem to want to propagate that, and that religion and land (the two major things this conflict is all about) are not worth millions of lives lost.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#534

Post by jacquesm »

edistra wrote: post #517
MisterBastahrd wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The State of Israel welcomed the attack. You would have to be an utter idiot to believe otherwise given how strong their surveillance apparatus is and the type of equipment it took to break through the barrier.

Do you have any legit source to support that claim ? It's really surprising indeed that they were not aware of the attack and that they could not defend their settlements. But that could also be explained by thinking themselves untouchable, leading now to an overreaction to hide their responsibility in this failure to protect their citizens.

I don't think there is a legit source to support that claim. But, there is some precedent, the Israeli hawks need Hamas as much as Hamas needs them and in the past they have actually propped up Hamas because they couldn't stomach the likes of Abbas who might be able to successfully establish a Palestinian state. This whole conflict is kept alive by stupidity like that (and the continued settlement program, which is effectively an unofficial way to keep expanding Israel without directly being as accountable).

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#535

Post by jacquesm »

megous wrote: post #527
jacquesm wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true, it may stop arms or targeting information from coming into Gaza.

Targetting info for their unguided rockets?

FYI: Unguided rockets still need to be targeted, you do this by aiming them and adjusting your aim after you make a shot can be done more reliably if you know where your rocket landed. That still requires your rockets to be of reasonably consistent build quality (which I have no data on) but it's been the same ever since artillery was first invented.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#536

Post by nec4b »

jacquesm wrote: post #533
nec4b wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you do if you were the leader of Israel? They have pulled out of Gaza in 2005. Hamas goal is destruction of Israel, I doesn't want any peace talks.

I would ask myself first where I want Israel to be in two centuries and then steer course for that even if that means losses in the short term. Because long term this won't end well if there isn't a real change of course even though in the short term it looks as if Israel has the upper hand. Note that 'The State of Israel' is not synonymous with the Jewish people - even though there are a lot of people on both sides…

They have a fanatical enemy today who will not negotiate or stop hostilities until Israel is gone. Again how should they solve this problem now?

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#537

Post by nec4b »

megous wrote: post #524
nec4b wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Do you believe those that supported Nazis were not responsible for atrocities of Nazism?

Of course they were. That's why Soviets raped so many wifes of Nazis (and non-nazis). It's called justice. /s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_... Seriously, why are you defending violence against women? Or did you not read the parent post in its entirety?

I had Nuremberg trials in mind. I don't like what you imagine as justice though.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#538

Post by hathym »

petertodd wrote: post #19
_lvbh wrote: post #3

At this point, I think Gaza is pretty much doomed. There won’t be much left at the end of this special military operation.

It's estimated that Hamas has between 30,000 and 40,000 soldiers(1), which is about 6% to 8% of Gaza's entire adult male population. There's no way of getting around it: if Israel finishes the job of eradicating Hamas, a large percentage of the Gazan population will be killed or captured, purely because so many of them are actively involved in Hamas. Anyway, if Gazan citizens learn the lessons of their mistakes, they…

Is it within the rights of the Palestinian people to defend themselves ?

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#539

Post by hbt »

edanm wrote: post #521
hbt wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The blockade of food and water is new. It's not new. Food insecurity has been an issue for years. The blockade has caused severe food insecurity and malnutrition among the 2.3 million people living in Gaza⁴⁵. According to the World Food Program (WFP), more than 60% of households in Gaza are food insecure and rely on humanitarian assistance⁵. The blockade has also affected the availability and quality of food in Ga…

Thank you for your open mindedness and civil tone, I hope to continue your example. > The blockade has caused severe food insecurity and malnutrition among the 2.3 million people living in Gaza⁴⁵ First of all, I'm not sure I understand where your citations are (the 4, 5 superscript), am I missing something? I didn't see any mention of food insecurity in the link immediately following. The outside view here is that Pa…

>> I have had to run to a bomb shelter almost every day

First, I didn't know you were Israeli. I live in Canada, far from the conflict and although it has been going on for decades, this moment feels different. It feels we are witnessing collective punishment on a large scale (and it's only beginning) and no one is attempting to de-escalate or even consider the future and its ramifications.

Having said that, I don't live under an "iron dome" and my life is not at risk; so, I can sympathize but will not be commenting on that as I have no lived experience of that level of stress and anxiety. No one deserves to live like that.

In Canada and many western countries, the media is biased towards Israel and the double speak to hide the truth and remove context is off the charts. When comparing the coverage with the Ukraine conflict, there is a silence similar to the Saudi's genocide in Yemen. You don't hear from Yemeni people, you don't see coverage from their perspective. It's the same thing now with people in Gaza. Compare this to Ukraine where we had the stories/experiences of individuals constantly relayed in the corporate media.

>> it's not up to Israel either - it's up to the Palestinians to decide they actually want peace

I completely disagree with that. Again, I see little to no good will from Israel. There are no humanitarian corridors open. People cannot escape. People can go south but even the Rafah (Egypt's border) area was bombed and they also bomb the south of the city in general. I will spare you repeating the talks of dehumanization, eradication from your democratically elected government officials as you've already expressed more empathy than any of them towards civilian lives.

But, I completely reject the notion that this violence is happening in a vaccuum and that Israel didn't play a role in causing this. Again, not alone here, as there are at least 15 U.N resolutions condemning Israel in 2022 alone and of course, vetoed by the U.S.

When I read about the lives of people in Gaza (before October 2023), I'm not surprised a movement of resistance like Hamas emerged. Gaza is under a blockade, their movement is restricted, their trade and goods are restricted, electricity, food etc. and it has been like that for years. It's why it's compared to a prison and Israel is its warden, literally. Israel shows little regard for Palestinian lives and they are treated more like a pest to be managed than the long distant cousins they are.

The lie is: Gaza has been left alone and the people/government have failed to make something of themselves. Meanwhile, I read/watch the lives of people in Gaza (very little footage as many journalists are not allowed to enter Gaza by Israel and are accused of being propagandists) and I can't even imagine how I would live my life under those circumstances without resorting to violence, radicalization or desperation.

Here are two videos that influenced me:

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hw4CH-Jg6lY This was filmed before October 2023 and shows the reality of the blockade, the lives of people in Gaza and their resourcefulness despite the safety/economic constraints.

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnZSaKYmP2s This was filmed in 2019, mostly in the west bank (which is a whole other disaster) and convinced me about Israel's intent and its so called "good will". I watched it when I heard Abby Martin on the Joe Rogan podcast. I haven't watched since.

Feel free to educate me if you have good material / videos / projects / initiatives you'd like to share that would change my perspective and help put an end to this conflict.

My wish for you is to find security and peace, and I hope that it will not come at the expense of many lives.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#540

Post by edanm »

jacquesm wrote: post #532
edanm wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, I want to emphatically agree - an Israeli life isn't worth any more than a Palestinian life. > Hamas has given Israel a good reason to strike back but not indiscriminately and in retribution I want to argue against your framing here, because that is not how Israelis see things. At least the normal ones don't think of it as "striking back in retribution" or anything like that. The thing is, Hamas has declared w…

> what do you think Israel should do given this current situation? I think the answer to that is to first figure out what kind of vision people have a for a long term view of what that part of the world will look like. If the vision is that at some point all these people are going to have to live together and mix freely then we are already on the wrong pathway for 70 years. If the vision is that Israel is forever goi…

> By the way: thank you for the respectful discussion on this extremely sensitive subject. Given some of the incredible garbage in this thread it is a welcome relief.

Likewise!

> I think the answer to that is to first figure out what kind of vision people have a for a long term view of what that part of the world will look like.

I think the only viable option is a two or possibly three state solution. For obvious reasons (obvious to Israelis at least), Israel must remain a majority-Jewish state, so a one-state solution is simply impossible. That means a two state solution where the Palestinians have their own state.

But how to get there from here is the problem. There have been many attempts at peace, including several peace deals that the Palestinians walked away from. The common line is that Israel has agreed to every compromise peace deal that's ever been put forward, which I'm sure isn't accurate, but is largely true; I fully believe that if the Palestinians had a decent leadership that would try to negotiate with Israel today and offer a deal, Israel would accept it.

But as long as the Palestinians insist on things that are unrealistic - with Hamas obviously being the worst example, insisting that Israel stop existing! - as long as that's the demand, I just don't see how we get to a peace deal. And obviously, Israeli leadership has been somewhat between apathetic to the Palestinians and full-on discouraging any kind of deal, so it's not like the Israeli government are exactly saints on this topic.

The only possible hope I have is that the current war is so bad, it forces Israel to actually wipe out Hamas, but then help get a more decent leadership on the Palestinian side that will actually help get to peace. I'm very doubtful that will happen, because I don't really trust either side to acutally pursue peace.

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