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The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

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Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Build an impenetrable DMZ, keep improving missile defence systems, continue forming alliances with neighboring Arab states, stop settlement expansion in West bank, crack down on settler violence, expel right-wing zealots from positions of power, iterate for 20-60 years, let the next generation figure it out. Get hostages out as a condition of a ceasefire agreement. Things were looking optimistic during the Oslo talks…

So you want the right-wing zealots in power to eject themselves? Or you expect a ground swell of support for left candidates who would tend to favor making peace with an enemy who just attacked you? Best case is that Hamas is completely routed (who knows) and Bibi takes all the flak for the war crimes and what have you. What happens if Israel does what you say but are still suffering attacks? How much antisemitism ex…

> So you want the right-wing zealots in power to eject themselves?

I want the US to force their hand to stop the invasion. Then Netanyahu's reckoning will come with the Israeli population. Likud needs this invasion to happen to distract the population from accountability. But if the US forces them to not invade, that reckoning can come sooner.

> What happens if Israel does what you say but are still suffering attacks?

That's where the DMZ and continued investment in missile defense comes in. Heck, get some security assurances from the US as part of a ceasefire agreement with Hamas. There should be creative solutions.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an atheist, it seems like there is plenty of fanaticism on both sides. Its impossible to "pick a side" in this conflict, there are good people and a*holes in both countries.

I'm an atheist too. That is a false equivalency. Guess which country is the 4th or 5th most secular country in the world... It might surprise you: Israel. Yep. That's thanks to the "Jews" who are jews in creed, not religion. Israel has its fanatics for sure and they gained more power in the last election. But it isn't controlled by its fanatics by any stretch of the imagination.

I think we need a different word for "ethnically Jewish" and "belief in the faith of Judaism", the confusion between the people and the faith causes problems.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#443
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Which is both deplorable and fails to justify the killing of innocents. I've dug bodies out of bombed buildings and am no fan of real life bloodied and burned bodies - whether the cause is Hamas, Israel, or an earthquake.

Sometimes you have to seek a solution when someone commits an act of war, like murdering 1400 civilians--brutally--and taking over 200 people hostage. The goal is to make sure this never happens again.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that true? I can only find news sources claiming that based only on information from the IDF, and those news sources don’t exactly seem neutral. This smells odd to me.

I don't think anyone other than the IDF and the Hamas would have access to that information. But a quick search found https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/hamas-preventing-gaza-r...

Fox News isn’t a very unbiased source, unfortunately. (The link is to MSN, but the report is from Fox).

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#445
post #399
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> have outright called for retribution When Israel invaded Gaza in 2014 they killed 2,310 people. 70% were civilians. In return they lost only 67 soldiers. They also destroyed 7-10k homes and damaged 87k other homes. Between 2005-2008, 1,754 Palestinians and 117 Israelis have lost their lives due to the ongoing occupation. Between 2008-2023 2,329 more Palestinians and 308 more Israeli people lost their lives. The vas…

> When Israel invaded Gaza in 2014 they killed 2,310 people. 70% were civilians. In return they lost only 67 soldiers. They also destroyed 7-10k homes and damaged 87k other homes. You say "in return" 67 soldiers died. That's not how any of this works. In conflict, you try to kill as many of the enemy soldiers as you can, while getting the least amount of death on your side as possible. You're not trading some number…

a blockade of food, water and electricity, all crucial, especially when you are confined in a small area with low resources and a lot of people is a genocide. combine it with a bombing campaign that is indiscriminately targeting civilians and their infrastructure, from internet to hospitals is a war crime.

keep in mind the blockade and hindering the economic development of Gaza is not new.

there is no such thing as eradicating hamas because Israel and its policies are a recruitment tool. This conflict will continue and the children today will be fighting in a few years because what choice do they have than resist.

The palestinians don't hide that their high fertility rate is politically motivated and have structured their society to marry young and have a lot of children as it is an act of Resistance.

not all children make it, the malnutrition rate was around 15%. again, all caused by Israel as they have control major aspects of that open air prison.

I think if you are shooting fish in a barrel and the international community lets you do it, you don't get to complain about the splashes and you certainly shouldn't be claiming the moral high ground.

no matter how much the politicians or corporate mainstream media keep repeating it, Israel and its apartheid genocidal policies don't have international support.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#446
post #445
post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When Israel invaded Gaza in 2014 they killed 2,310 people. 70% were civilians. In return they lost only 67 soldiers. They also destroyed 7-10k homes and damaged 87k other homes. You say "in return" 67 soldiers died. That's not how any of this works. In conflict, you try to kill as many of the enemy soldiers as you can, while getting the least amount of death on your side as possible. You're not trading some number…

a blockade of food, water and electricity, all crucial, especially when you are confined in a small area with low resources and a lot of people is a genocide. combine it with a bombing campaign that is indiscriminately targeting civilians and their infrastructure, from internet to hospitals is a war crime. keep in mind the blockade and hindering the economic development of Gaza is not new. there is no such thing as e…

> a blockade of food, water and electricity, all crucial, especially when you are confined in a small area with low resources and a lot of people is a genocide. [...] keep in mind the blockade and hindering the economic development of Gaza is not new.

The blockade of food and water is new. And if you're saying this is not new, how can it be a genocide if people aren't dying because of it? Genocide is defined as killing off a population, but while life is certainly not great for Gazans (to say the least), Israel is not killing them.

> combine it with a bombing campaign that is indiscriminately targeting civilians and their infrastructure, from internet to hospitals is a war crime.

Your facts are wrong. It's not indiscriminate shooting. Israel is targeting militants, which make it not a war crime. It is an unfortunate (truly unfortunate!) reality that the militants choose to place themselves among civilians, including under hospitals, on purpose, which means that Hamas is responsible for two crimes - both shooting at Israelis, and getting Israel to fire back on their own civilians that they are supposed to protect.

> there is no such thing as eradicating hamas because Israel and its policies are a recruitment tool. This conflict will continue and the children today will be fighting in a few years because what choice do they have than resist.

Well there is eradicating Hamas. It is a specific group with specific people in it. ISIS was eradicated, after all.

But yes, it's a complicated situation.

But there is a choice other than resist - if they give up on the idea of getting back all of Israel (which effectively means eradicating the Israeli state), if and they give up armed resistance, there could be peace tomorrow. The Palestinians have had many deals put forward and chose to continue fighting.

I really wish there was a for everyone to get what they want, but if what they want is for my country to disappear - well, sorry, what am I supposed to say to that other than no?

> not all children make it, the malnutrition rate was around 15%. again, all caused by Israel as they have control major aspects of that open air prison.

Just to be clear, Egypt is also blockading Gaza. No one is blaming Egypt, and no one is committing terror acts against Egypt. Why is that?

Also, you call it an open-air prison, in what sense? Gaza is under the control of Hamas, Israel left it twenty years ago. All they've done since then is wage war against Israel.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#447
post #3

At this point, I think Gaza is pretty much doomed. There won’t be much left at the end of this special military operation.

It's estimated that Hamas has between 30,000 and 40,000 soldiers(1), which is about 6% to 8% of Gaza's entire adult male population. There's no way of getting around it: if Israel finishes the job of eradicating Hamas, a large percentage of the Gazan population will be killed or captured, purely because so many of them are actively involved in Hamas. Anyway, if Gazan citizens learn the lessons of their mistakes, they…

Then that means we're looking at ~150,000 to 200,000 Israeli casualties.

Roughly a fourth of all their trained personnel and a seventh of all the males available for conscription.

Nearly all of Gaza is built up urban centers and Hamas has had a decade plus of preparation time for this event. The urban fighting for the attackers is going to be some of the worst since Leningrad. It's going to take years to fully clean out the ~100 sqmi of Gaza.

Such an invasion will reverberate in Israel for 100 years. It'll be not quite as bad as what happened to the USSR's male population after WW2. But it's going to be really really bad all the same. The PTSD alone is going to be unimaginable.

Nothing good can come of this for either side, even the back of a napkin math is clear on that.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone other than the IDF and the Hamas would have access to that information. But a quick search found https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/hamas-preventing-gaza-r...

Fox News isn’t a very unbiased source, unfortunately. (The link is to MSN, but the report is from Fox).

Yes. I'm with you on that, notice there's a video there though. Also there are other sources e.g. guardian mentioned it: https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/oct/13/israel-ha...

Reuters doesn't mention it but it did mention that the Hamas explicitly told residents to stay home: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-tells-gaza-r...

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#449
post #446
post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a blockade of food, water and electricity, all crucial, especially when you are confined in a small area with low resources and a lot of people is a genocide. combine it with a bombing campaign that is indiscriminately targeting civilians and their infrastructure, from internet to hospitals is a war crime. keep in mind the blockade and hindering the economic development of Gaza is not new. there is no such thing as e…

> a blockade of food, water and electricity, all crucial, especially when you are confined in a small area with low resources and a lot of people is a genocide. [...] keep in mind the blockade and hindering the economic development of Gaza is not new. The blockade of food and water is new. And if you're saying this is not new, how can it be a genocide if people aren't dying because of it? Genocide is defined as killi…

>> The blockade of food and water is new.

It's not new. Food insecurity has been an issue for years.

The blockade has caused severe food insecurity and malnutrition among the 2.3 million people living in Gaza⁴⁵. According to the World Food Program (WFP), more than 60% of households in Gaza are food insecure and rely on humanitarian assistance⁵. The blockade has also affected the availability and quality of food in Gaza, as many products are scarce, expensive or expired⁵.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/25/un-report-80-p...

>> how can it be a genocide if people aren't dying because of it?

I'm not waiting to see what happens when people are starved for weeks and I'm not the only one calling it a genocide:

- https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/damning-evide...

- https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/10/28/kilj-o28.html

>> It's not indiscriminate shooting.

The strength of hamas is their tunnels and underground networks and how they use them to traffic weapons, goods and people to circumvent the blockades. That's the source of their power and bombing buildings changes little to Hamas infrastructure or leadership (which is in Qatar/overseas). Even destroying civilian infrastructure like cell towers and Internet does little. Hamas uses hardwired lines and radios as again, the city is small enough to be called a prison and they are fully aware of Israeli digital surveillance.

Did bombing civilian villages change anything to Viet Cong tunnels in Vietnam? Or, the allies during WW2 bombing campaigns in Japan and Germany, did it rally the people against the authorities? The answer to both is no.

>> If and they give up armed resistance, there could be peace tomorrow. The Palestinians have had many deals put forward and chose to continue fighting.

Honestly, if you want to continue this conversation, I'm open to discussing those deals and brainstorming solutions such as grassroot peacebuilding projects, virtual diplomacy (difficult now that the population is voiceless, huh?), and economic integration.

But, I don't believe it's honest to say Israel has displayed good will when Israel has implemented a system of permits and licenses that restricts the ability of Palestinian workers and businesses to access Israeli markets. Palestinians face limitations on exporting their products to Israeli and international markets, which can hinder economic growth and development.

Any palestinian allowed to work are usually limited to agriculture and construction sector and often restricted to the occupied / settler zones.

I want to define "Grassroots Peacebuilding" clearly because it's something I'm interested in and I believe in the power of individuals: "Prioritizing grassroots initiatives that bring Israelis and Palestinians together for dialogue, joint projects, and community-building activities can help build trust and understanding from the ground up. This approach emphasizes the power of individuals and communities to drive change."

>> Egypt is also blockading Gaza. No one is blaming Egypt, and no one is committing terror acts against Egypt. Why is that?

People are not blaming Egypt because it's not bombing Gaza and preparing a ground invasion.

Egypt is blockading Gaza (as evidenced by the fact the border was only open for 23 days in 2022) https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2022/6/15/the-seven-borde...

The rationale for the Egypt blockade as I understand is:

- Egypt considers Hamas a threat as it is an offshoot of the Muslism Brotherhood which was ousted from power in 2013.

- Egypt accuses Hamas of supporting militant groups in the Sinai Peninsula, where Egypt has been fighting a long insurgency https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/egypt-arab-co...

- Egypt also wants to maintain its peace treaty with Israel, which it signed in 1979. By preserving the status quo of the blockade until a lasting solution is foudn, Egypt maintains its role as a mediator and is not undermined by siding with one party over the other. It also continues to benefit from economic and military aid from the United States https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/egypt-arab-co... and avoids fueling the conflict which could spill into its borders as it already hosts millions of refugees from conflicts in Syria, Sudan, Ethiopia etc.

Please note I have to get going with my day but I will reply later.

Thank you

Edit: because I got my links mixed up

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#450
post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question — how else would you describe dropping a nuclear bomb each on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, cities full of civilians, causing "between 129,000 and 226,000" deaths (source: Wikipedia)? Those were not military targets.

Meanwhile Japan was killing that amount of Chinese civilians a week through only sheer willpower -- very kawaii. How many Chinese victims and American servicemen (mostly conscripts) were you willing to sacrifice on this altar of stupidity/hindsight? Not to even mention the fact MORE JAPANESE themselves would have died without the bombs being dropped and I really begin to question not just the morals of the OP but you…

Japan has committed many atrocities and had no moral high ground, nor would I have suggested so. I am not debating how many conscripts to sacrifice and so on, and you are free to question my intelligence however much you wish. I reject your framing of my answer to the OP and engaging with false implications and things I have not claimed.

More to the point, the bomb(s) could have been dropped on military targets away from civilians and still fully display their destructive power to the same effect of forcing a surrender. Did they absolutely need to be dropped on top of cities and murder so many civilians? This IS a display of barbarism and revenge, no matter how conducive to the goal of ending the war.

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