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The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

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Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#521
post #449
post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a blockade of food, water and electricity, all crucial, especially when you are confined in a small area with low resources and a lot of people is a genocide. [...] keep in mind the blockade and hindering the economic development of Gaza is not new. The blockade of food and water is new. And if you're saying this is not new, how can it be a genocide if people aren't dying because of it? Genocide is defined as killi…

>> The blockade of food and water is new. It's not new. Food insecurity has been an issue for years. The blockade has caused severe food insecurity and malnutrition among the 2.3 million people living in Gaza⁴⁵. According to the World Food Program (WFP), more than 60% of households in Gaza are food insecure and rely on humanitarian assistance⁵. The blockade has also affected the availability and quality of food in Ga…

Thank you for your open mindedness and civil tone, I hope to continue your example.

> The blockade has caused severe food insecurity and malnutrition among the 2.3 million people living in Gaza⁴⁵

First of all, I'm not sure I understand where your citations are (the 4, 5 superscript), am I missing something? I didn't see any mention of food insecurity in the link immediately following.

The outside view here is that Palestinians haven't been dying of malnutrition over these last twenty years. Yes, outside aid is necessary, but Israel isn't denying that outside help in general.

Btw, it's worth asking why this is automatically Israel's fault. Hamas is the government of Gaza, if Gaza is doing poorly, aren't they at fault? They could invest in improving their lives.

> I'm not waiting to see what happens when people are starved for weeks and I'm not the only one calling it a genocide:

I'm willing to bet whatever you want that Israel will not cause mass starvation among Gazans. We wouldn't do that. If we do that, then yes, that's evil. But despite everyone being super worried about the Israeli response, it's been 3 weeks, we're currently at war, and there's be no mass death of Gazans. (Again, the thousands of civilians killed is tragedy enough and I don't want to minimize that, but it's also definitely not a genocide.)

Btw, the groups you link to are... not very persuasive to me.

> The strength of hamas is their tunnels and underground networks [...] Did bombing civilian villages change anything to Viet Cong tunnels in Vietnam? Or, the allies during WW2 bombing campaigns in Japan and Germany, did it rally the people against the authorities? The answer to both is no.

Now you're talking strategy, you're asking if in practice Hamas can be rooted out. I have no idea! I'm doubtful about it as you are. I hope we can, because I think the only way for Israel to be safe, and coincidentally the only way for Gazans to be safe, is with Hamas gone.

I don't expect the bombings of Germany to have turned the populations against the government directly, but I don't think that was their only goal or the fact that they didn't means they weren't worth doing. Though I know very little about this topic - very possibly these weren't morally justified! Idk.

> People are not blaming Egypt because it's not bombing Gaza and preparing a ground invasion.

Yes, but I meant why are people not saying that Egypt is starving Gaza too, or causing Gaza to be underdeveloped too.

And yes, Egypt isn't bombing Gaza, but Gazans aren't sending rockets at Egypt either. Which, reminder, they're continuing to do to Israel! I have had to run to a bomb shelter almost every day for 3 weeks, sometimes multiple times per day, as they try to kill me. Surely my government is allowed to do something to respond, like trying to bomb the people shooting at me to get them to stop?

> [...] I don't believe it's honest to say Israel has displayed good will when Israel has implemented a system of permits and licenses that restricts the ability of Palestinian workers and businesses to access Israeli markets. Palestinians face limitations on exporting their products to Israeli and international markets, which can hinder economic growth and development.

I mean, I think it's absolutely ok for Israel to not allow any Palestinian into Israel. For one thing, it's a separately governed entity - I'm not allowed to come work in the States, because the States has an immigration policy that precludes it. This doesn't mean the States is oppressing me or that it's not showing good faith towards me.

As for export limitations, don't know much about which limitations exist. You might be right about this. (I certainly don't get behind everything the government does, especially this government which is terrible in so many ways.)

> Honestly, if you want to continue this conversation, I'm open to discussing those deals and brainstorming solutions such as grassroot peacebuilding projects, virtual diplomacy (difficult now that the population is voiceless, huh?), and economic integration.

I'm definitely open to discussing it. And I've seen several Israeli Arabs and several Palestinians speaking out against Hamas and for peace.

I'm all in favor of peace. But Hamas has made it very clear that they are not, and that no peace is possible with them, nor any security for Israel. As an Israeli, the security of myself and my family has to come first - it shouldn't be at the expense of anyone else, but because of Hamas, it is at the expense of their own people.

I'd love nothing more than a way out of this horrible situation we're in. It's not up to me, and I honestly believe that, despite how Israel acts, it's not up to Israel either - it's up to the Palestinians to decide they actually want peace. I honestly believe that as soon as they do, Israel will jump at the chance to make peace. (And just to be clear, I think Israel is pushing this away too, mostly because most Israelis believe that peace is not currently possible.)

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#522
post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2. Who are "they" shooting rockets at you? The children you're killing? The civilians in a hospital getting treatment form previous bombings? I stand by my statement. You're defending war crimes and terrorism. It's what it is, no matter how justified you believe it is to kill these innocent people.

> Who are "they" shooting rockets at you? The children you're killing? The civilians in a hospital getting treatment form previous bombings? The Hamas militants that are using hospitals as a base of operations. If you honestly want to discuss this, then here's my suggestion - let's set aside the factual question for a second. If it's true that Hamas is firing rockets from within hospitals and/or using hospitals as a…

What your government could do? Perhaps stop the occupation and killings of Palestinians. I think you would find that the innocent people being killed by your bombs don't really want to fight, they just want to live their life in peace. I can't fathom how you can justify bombing thousands of children just because some operation is carried out from somewhere in the city. I mean, what is it now, 3000 children in a matter of days being killed by Israel? But sure, killing them is probably "defending you"..

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#524
post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ipaddr wrote: > Those who support Hamas aren't innocent. That is the language of genocide.

Why? Do you believe those that supported Nazis were not responsible for atrocities of Nazism?

Of course they were. That's why Soviets raped so many wifes of Nazis (and non-nazis). It's called justice. /s

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_...

Seriously, why are you defending violence against women? Or did you not read the parent post in its entirety?

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What safe zone? Israel is bombing south Gaza too. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/why-is-israel-atta...

The attacks there are mild and usually follow the prior procedure of warning shot before the attack giving people time to hide. In the south it only targets actionable intelligence e.g. the Hamas "navy seal" unit was in the south next to a port. That was a very localized specific attack.

> The attacks there are mild and usually follow the prior procedure of warning shot before the attack giving people time to hide.

This is just unsourced lie.

There are thousands of victims in the south. 9/11 was a mild attack by your judgement.

https://t.me/MOHMediaGaza/4296?single

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#526

The article sympathizes with only with one side of a horrible war, and only about losing its internet connection. It's surrealistic. It's like reading an article about Berlin citizens losing telephone connection in May 1945.

The article is about the damage to an internet/mobile operator infrastructure.

If there's any comparable damage to internet/mobile infrastructure of Israel, feel free to share, otherwise I don't see your point.

I haven't seen any comparable damage on the Israel side to be sympathetic about.

Not sure if you realize how destructive, and dangerous to regular people complete prolonged blackout of all communication is. People give briths, have hart attacks, strokes, get injured, need to organize aid delivery so not to starve, disabled people need contact with people that can help them, thousands of people daily call for medical help for general health issues, psychological issues,...

Disabling the entire communication infrastructure is absolutely disastrous. Many people died because of this.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Hamas is getting info from Iran, it's possible there's a benefit here.

That's true, it may stop arms or targeting information from coming into Gaza.

Targetting info for their unguided rockets?

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#528
post #33

Nearly all of the over 7k people killed in Gaza in the past few days are civilians. Sure Hamas, with the help of the media framing of this as a 9/11, gave them a good Casus belli, but Israel has always been good at finding Casus bellis. When Israel again invaded Gaza in 2014, they killed 2,310 people, 70% civilians and lost 67 soldiers in return. Even more destructive was the 7-10k homes completely demolished and 87k…

> Nearly all of the over 7k people killed in Gaza in the past few days are civilians. This number comes from Hamas, so I would take it with a grain of salt. Hamas intentionally uses its civilians as shields for their military equipment. Here is a quote from Hamas's 1988 charter: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. T…

That document is outdated. And you may read some books about Hamas to get some context about that document, if you like.

Here's a more uptodate charter: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#529
post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The attacks there are mild and usually follow the prior procedure of warning shot before the attack giving people time to hide. In the south it only targets actionable intelligence e.g. the Hamas "navy seal" unit was in the south next to a port. That was a very localized specific attack.

> The attacks there are mild and usually follow the prior procedure of warning shot before the attack giving people time to hide. This is just unsourced lie. There are thousands of victims in the south. 9/11 was a mild attack by your judgement. https://t.me/MOHMediaGaza/4296?single

Well, the attack on Israel was equivalent to 48,000 people dying on 9/11 and that doesn't include the kidnapping of civilians.

You're giving numbers from Telegram which isn't exactly a reliable source either.

I'm not a fan of the bombings. Every alternative seems worse though. It seems that far more people will die on a widespread ground invasion. A ceasefire is a ridiculous option, there are kidnapped hostages (children and elderly) still held by the Hamas. The Hamas is still firing rockets at civilians on a daily basis.

What would you do in this situation if you were the Israeli government?

They murdered and kidnapped children. They are fanatics who won't take anything less than the entire country you live in. They hide behind civilians and literally placed their headquarters under a hospital.

Every option sucks and it's going to get MUCH worse.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#530
post #189
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, historically it's been fairly accurate and reliable. Does this guarantee they're accurate today? No. Do I blindly trust anything that's being said? No. But merely "it's Hamas, therefore the figures are false" also doesn't really cut it. See e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/26/can-we-trust-c...

A week ago, when Hamas dropped a rocket on THEIR OWN hospital, the "Health Ministry" said Israel killed 500 people. Despite it not being Israel, and it not killing 500 people. They are just straight up lying

Here's the MoH channel https://t.me/s/MOHMediaGaza

I don't see why you put the "Health Ministry" in quotes. If you scroll prior to 7th oct you'd see content any normal health ministry in any country would produce.

Just so much demonization going on, these days.

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