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The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

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Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#251

Post by petertodd »

philistine wrote: post #204
anonu wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then what? Is Hamas a wart you can simply excise? And if you do, will you just be galvanizing the next generation of fighters? If so many are part of the population, it would seem so...

I believe the Israeli goal is shockingly quaint: get the government in Gaza, who is Hamas, to surrender unconditionally. Attack until the leadership of the movement is completely demoralized and gives up. Mind you I 100% disagree that it is possible. Israel is looking at a long occupation.

"shockingly quaint"

That's basically what happened to WW2 Germany. The country was crushed to the point where they unconditionally surrendered, killing 5 million German soldiers in the process.

Nazism is pretty much dead in Germany. So the approach did in fact work, and quite possibly would have worked even without the Marshal plan.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#252

Post by jacquesm »

petertodd wrote: post #227
bhouston wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Peter Todd wrote: > That does not change the fact that Hamas does have widespread support! I already linked you this survey that showed that Hamas doesn't have widespread support: https://twitter.com/ForeignAffairs/status/171800792755696451... > If Israel did nothing other than kill the ~40,000 Hamas soldiers, along with destroying military and economic infrastructure, they'll easily buy themselves another 10 years o…

> I already linked you this survey that showed that Hamas doesn't have widespread support You're survey shows frustration with ineffective governance. There are lots of governments out there that people are frustrated with, yet still support. > Oh, okay. You are fine with just repeatedly bombing a captive population. It takes all kinds I guess. I'm not fine with it. But that doesn't change the fact that from Israeli'…

So, let's for a moment assume that Israel is successful in eradicating all of Hamas. Unlikely, but for the sake of the argument let's assume that it works.

Then, two days later they kick a bunch of Palestinians out of their homes and bulldoze it, hand the land to a bunch of settlers.

What's to stop a new Hamas to rise again?

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#253

Post by xerxesaa »

petertodd wrote: post #241
avtar wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've been giving evacuation warnings and then proceeding to bomb the very areas where people have been fleeing to... https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/why-is-israel-atta...

[flagged]

And yet this did not save Wael Al-Dahdouh's family. He followed every order and evacuated his family. His wife, kids, and grandchild were wiped out in an airstrike in a refugee camp no less.

He handled it with immense maturity and dedication. He's back to work reporting on the war.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#254

Post by jacquesm »

YZF wrote: post #250
jacquesm wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed the same here in NL, so this isn't just limited to the USA. You're either for Israel or you're an anti-semite. The possibility that you question the validity of the way Israel deals with Palestinians (notably: the settlements, which are in my opinion an outrageous violation of human rights against the original inhabitants) while at the same time not having anything in particular against Jews is something…

I don't think this is true in general. Many people that support Israel are critical of Israeli policies in the west bank (including the US administration). I think there's a problem when you apply different standard to Jews vs. everyone else or are parroting some narrative that has anti-semitic aspects to it. For example, I would call people contesting the right of Israel to exist, despite many generations of Israeli…

The bit that seems to have really pissed me off is when the Hawks decided that they didn't want peace and Rabin was murdered. We got that close to stopping this or at least to seriously de-escalating it. That's when I realized it's not just one side that wants this conflict to be perpetrated, there are elements on both sides that see their case strengthened the longer the conflict lasts and the more lives are lost.

Both sides need to take care of their extremists. Otherwise this will just go on and on.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#255

Post by ipaddr »

jacquesm wrote: post #180
ipaddr wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The last time I saw paraphrased language like this it was the Jews on the receiving end. Do us all a favor and stop with this kind of language, this is exactly what keeps the wheel of violence turning. For every terrorist you kill you get three new ones. For every house that gets demolished and a family displaced you get another bunch, for every child that gets shot there are bereaved people left behind some of whom…

War ends when one side is destroyed or both sides agree to peace. When both sides see the devil and one side is stronger than the other side the other side many not exist for much longer.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#256

Post by jacquesm »

enterprise_cog wrote: post #239
petertodd wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What if Israel stopped killing Palestinians and normalized relations with Gaza? Israel could choose a different path. Hamas slaughtered over a thousand Jewish civilians three weeks ago. They've been continuously launching rockets into Israel since then. They have been able to do that because Israel had chosen to partially normalize relations, eg by allowing trucks to import goods into Gaza, allowing the import of c…

Oh, so if only they went back to a total lockdown of Gaza and treated it like a more maximum security prison, then this wouldn’t have happened? What if they didn’t treat it like a prison, or Palestinians like subhuman prisoners? Do you think that maybe then they wouldn’t want to go on raids and kill people? That those 1400 soldiers and civilians would still be alive?

The Israeli viewpoint in some circles is that the number would then be higher. And they may well be right, but that doesn't mean that the situation can continue the way it has been going for the last 20 years. The fanatics on both sides will have to be brought to heel.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#257

Post by YZF »

tachyons wrote: post #235
YZF wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a breakdown of how many civilian casualties were in the north vs. south? And how many were killed on the way? Israel denies attacking anyone on the way. There was plenty of reporting showing people moving along the main arteries that were recommended and those look clear with no debris or any other evidence of attack. I'm aware of a single incident where it was claimed Israel attacked someone evacuating a…

Take control over all water sources, electricity and disconnect it, ask people to leave their house without even enough food and destroy whatever they have gained during the life time. And still bomb them claiming that location they moved has military targets. https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/8/27/photos-palestini... (pre Oct 7)

"Al Jazeera is a Qatari state-owned Arabic-language news television network"

Excuse me if I'm not going to take that as a source.

Israel only provided some fraction of water and electricity to Gaza and is under no obligation to keep providing that in a state of war. Do you have other examples of countries at war when one side provides the other with water and electricity?

Look- you're right that Israel has asked people to leave everything behind and move. War sucks. I can't say I don't sympathize with those people, I do. You seem to have some emotional connection to this situation and I certainly do. I don't have any solutions unfortunately. Israelis have been pushed to the corner right now.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#258

Post by petertodd »

xerxesaa wrote: post #253
petertodd wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

And yet this did not save Wael Al-Dahdouh's family. He followed every order and evacuated his family. His wife, kids, and grandchild were wiped out in an airstrike in a refugee camp no less. He handled it with immense maturity and dedication. He's back to work reporting on the war.

> And yet this did not save Wael Al-Dahdouh's family.

As I have repeatedly said, in a war of this nature large numbers of Gazan civilians will inevitably die. As long as Israel eliminates Hamas, this is unavoidable. If Israel fails to eliminate Hamas, large numbers of Israeli's will be killed by Hamas in the future.

Between those two options, obviously Israel is going to choose the option where Israli's don't get slaughtered again in the future. As they should. Hamas is evil and needs to be destroyed. Which means, killing or capturing the tens of thousands of Hamas soldiers and other members. Hamas soldiers alone are about 30,000 to 40,000 people. Those men need to be killed or captured.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#259

Post by invalidname »

solarpunk wrote: post #61

how does Israel give evacuation warnings if Palestinian telcos are offline?

The warnings were given for a while now. Unfortunately, the Hamas has set up roadblocks to prevent civilians from fleeing to the safe zone. They are using civilians (their own people and children) as human shields.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#260

Post by zogrodea »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #247
logicchains wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The United States, within living memory, conducted a firebombing campaign of Dresden, which had limited military value, killing over 25,000. We interned over 100,000 of our own citizens of Japanese ancestry. We conducted a firebombing campaign of Tokyo, killing around 100,000 civilians and leaving over a million homeless. The United States was the most powerful country by far at the time. Israel is tiny in compariso…

[flagged]

“Should we be unable to find a way to honest cooperation and honest pacts with the Arabs, then we have learned absolutely nothing during our 2,000 years of suffering.”

Einstein in his letter to Zionist leader Chaim Weizmann, Nov. 25, 1929, AEA (Albert Einstein Archives) 33-411.

He's not alone in this sentiment. Other prominent Jews like Hannah Arendt were anti-Zionist too.

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