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George Carlin's "Soft Language" (2019)

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Re: George Carlin's "Soft Language" (2019)

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go show your kid a real factory farm instead of a high-end butcher in a trendy food hall and report back! Easy experiment to run and your kids’ reaction could settle this debate.

Factory farms are pure nightmare fuel. But showing people factory farms, I think, is less likely to make people become vegans than it is to make people agitate for more humane forms of slaughter.

I think it'd do both, and either/both is an improvement. Which is, of course, why factory farms try so hard to disallow their operations from being shown.

Re: George Carlin's "Soft Language" (2019)

#222
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such language policing is double-plus-ungood. (For those that haven’t read the classic Nineteen-eighty-four book by Eric Arthur Blair (pen name: George Orwell) one of the core themes of the story is how the ruling party controlled language, calling it “newspeak”, in order to remove the ability to express certain thoughts or opinions, most notably those that could be used to incite revolution or allow you to express d…

We have a local mind-control cult where I live. When asked they'll retort "why yes, we are a mind control cult. We teach you how to control your mind." ...but that isn't what I meant. Controlling the language. It's a big thing.

It's interesting that you have a local cult. What's it called?

Re: George Carlin's "Soft Language" (2019)

#223
post #100

I saw a conversation on Twitter a while ago back when it still was Twitter. The OP with many followers was laying out words and classes of words with negative connotations that shouldn't be used. Someone replied in good faith to OP and asked how we should express negative thoughts. OPs answer was basically that we shouldn't. I find that kind of thought very off putting and minorly disturbing. An important part of the…

A great recent example is everyone changing whitelist/blacklist to allowlist/blocklist because Americans are so fucking obsessed with race politics that they see it absolutely everywhere

Allowlist/blocklist is more clear and accurate tho?

The software community loves to complain about this stuff like the change from master to main branch but I always get the sense that people just liked to complain rather than any meaningful objection.

Re: George Carlin's "Soft Language" (2019)

#224
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the reasons (i.e. toilets probably evoke more subtle grossness than bathrooms or washrooms do), and I haven’t heard some of those you mention, but still unclear why it’s a bad thing vis a vis an observation of changing language.

Back in the old day, when men were men, saying "toilet paper" wouldn't cause a room full of people to faint in shock at the dirty word. People were hard then. All these people trying to make their language more soft and welcoming are ignoring the fact that the world is supposed to suck, kindness is a modern invention, and frankly we can all see that it was a mistake. I recommend you curse at everyone around constantl…

> Back in the old day, when men were men, saying "toilet paper" wouldn't cause a room full of people to faint in shock at the dirty word. People were hard then.

Pardon? When was this era?

"Toilet paper" was embarrassing in the late 1800s when it became available in the US. Quoting https://www.heatandplumb.com/blog/history-of-toilet-paper :

"The next significant American innovation came in 1890, when brothers Clarence and E. Irvin Scott marketed the first toilet paper roll. They found more success than Gayetty thanks to negotiating trade deals with several hotels and local shops, Despite the steady income they generated, the brothers struggled to sell their toilet paper to the wider population; many Americans were too embarrassed to purchase it in public."

Or from https://community.oerproject.com/b/blog/posts/a-splinter-fre... :

"But many people in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century were reluctant to talk openly about poop. They were often too embarrassed to walk out of a store carrying an armful of toilet paper. People would instead order something like “wrapping paper” with a wink and a nod to the shopkeeper. But marketers eventually found a way to fix this problem. Have you ever wondered why so many TP brands have pictures of baby animals or baby humans on them? They used to have images of beautiful women on the packages. Advertisers wanted to emphasize softness and to avoid talking about the fact that these were rolls of paper designed to remove excrement from the human body."

You can see one way marketers worked to calm this embarrassment in a 1922 advertisement:

  easy to ask for - easy to get
  Ask for Northern Tissue. You don't
  even have to say toilet paper. You
  will get the most thoroughly safe,
  pure, salutary product, fine and soft,
  yet firm, 650 sheets to the roll, and
  surprisingly low in price.
 
     AND YOU CAN GET IT WITH-
     OUT EMBARRASSMENT. SIMPLY

  Ask for
     Northern Tissue
         at any of these stores
(Fifth page of the PDF at https://archive.org/details/lincoln-evening-state-journal-an... .)

Here's a quote from a 1947 short story at https://digitalrepository.unm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?articl... :

  Jolan's wife came from the house and to the gate, a child in her
  arms. "Here, Lora" she called in a loud voice. "You'll need this. It's
  going to be all day." She handed Lora a small roll of toilet paper, a
  precious article here. She spoke without modesty, for in a house with-
  out windows if one blushed at such things one would bleed away into
  blushes.
Yes, someone more well-off would be expected to blush about using toilet paper in public like that.

The idea that "toilet paper" was something improper existed until at least the 1950s. Here's a 1958 use from https://archive.org/details/ucladailybruin36losa/page/n127/m... :

  One of the entries — the winning one has not yet been
  chosen — is written entirely on Seppi paper (it's so
  crude to say toilet paper) cutely bound with a feminine
  pink ribbon.
Indeed, my own grandmother would say "TP" instead of "toilet paper".

Re: George Carlin's "Soft Language" (2019)

#225
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that conservatives most often quote "Nineteen-eighty-four" as a comment on "politically correct" language. But when asked about "family values", "obamacare", "right to work" and other conservative double-speak, they often don't feel like those apply. My point is not that conservatives use more double-speak/newspeak then progressives, rather my point is that this is used and applied across the political spectru…

I think the more heinous "conservative" (as you put it) changes are related to physical conditions and the euphemism treadmill. George Carlins "soft language" specifically spells out an example; shell-shock, battle fatigue -> Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. I think making a term so long that it becomes an acronym is definitely part of this. The most up-to-the-minute example I can think of is "CSAM" which removes all…

CSAM I'd put in a different category - just based on the flow of the conversation I'd guess some people have deep seated emotions that trigger when children get hurt. There is a reason that authoritarians use children for cover when pushing their agenda - the topic hinders people's ability to argue rationally and engage the part of their brain that that can spot obviously bad ideas (war is similar - having an enemy seems to do similar things).

"CSAM" is useful because it is so drained of any colour. It makes it much less likely that emotions get triggered because it gets discussed as an abstract thing instead of something related to children.

Re: George Carlin's "Soft Language" (2019)

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Factory farms are pure nightmare fuel. But showing people factory farms, I think, is less likely to make people become vegans than it is to make people agitate for more humane forms of slaughter.

I think it'd do both, and either/both is an improvement. Which is, of course, why factory farms try so hard to disallow their operations from being shown.

Oh, I agree that would be an improvement. I'm just saying most people will get more emotionally distressed by animal torture than about killing animals for food.

But I should admit my bias here: I am not a vegetarian (although I don't eat a great deal of meat either) and so I'm not upset that animals are killed for food. But I get very worked up about animals being tortured whether they're ending up as food or not, so I'm ascribing to "most people" what I feel myself, which is always a bit questionable.

Re: George Carlin's "Soft Language" (2019)

#227
post #71
post #17

>"Americans have trouble facing the truth," Carlin said. "So they invent a kind of a soft language to protect themselves from it" It is useful and not limited to Americans, that's why people do it. Much more people would have been vegans or they would be much more indifferent to violence if every pack of meat had a QR code to a video showing the life and processing of that particular animal. It's also not just soften…

For literally thousands of years humans personally slaughtered animals and had no problem with it. But you assume people wouldn’t do this without some fanciful words for it. Based on what? Wishful thinking?

I think you are correct. People will be fine with the general idea of killing animals.

But.

In those thousand of years, was the meat produced the same way?

What type of antibiotics alternative were our elders using to prevent sickness in large groups of animals? Did they raised them squeezed next to each other without moving for their all life?

Where our forefathers feeding a purée of the dead one to the next generation to boost their immune system?

Did they had to pasteurize the milk, not for enhanced shelf life but mostly because sanitary condition are so poor that other wise you found particles of shit in it?

I could go on. But I think the comment you responding to as a fair point. Real; 2023 technic of meat/eggs/milk production are horrifying. we don’t know how the sausage is made.

I’m not vegetarian. I’ve kill and skinned large mammals ( goats .. not that fancy but well ) but I avoid industrial meat as much as possible.

Those are meat factory with advance industrial processes. I do thing folks would be concern for their own health and kinda disgusted if it was displayed more transparently.

Re: George Carlin's "Soft Language" (2019)

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered the possibility that "Earthlings" is one data point among a very complex web of superficially opposing ideas/arguments that are actually all part of a coordinated agenda to try to fundamentally change your behaviour and psychology by messing with your emotions? Go look up B.F. Skinner and Operant Conditioning (His book Walden 2 is a semi-fictional work that provides a pretty good approximation to…

> a coordinated agenda ... of making me have empathy with sentient beings suffering? Joke's on them, I already had that.

Or selling you products Impossible burgers Tofu. It's like a coordinated agenda to stigmatize the internal combustion engine and promote renewable energy sources like solar and wind. You might just be in the prime demographics for both but a majority of the population isn't.

Re: George Carlin's "Soft Language" (2019)

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you guys come up with this stuff? When I was a teen in Appalachia, I butchered dozens of chickens a day, by hand, during canning season.

I think you lost the thread. The claim was factory farming doesn’t change the volume of meat consumption and production, only the geographic location of it. It is economically not viable for every American family to produce and kill their own 2lb of (currently, on average) consumed meat per day. That is why we have factory farming and why it dominates our food supply: economies of scale. The lack of these economies i…

I think you've lost track of the difference between other people and yourself. The words you're using seem to talk about how other people feel, but you're actually talking about how you feel and assuming that any difference between the two is rooted in ignorance.

> "your kids’ reaction"

Maybe this should be "my reaction as a kid", since you don't know that person's kids.

> "The emotions one feels"

Should be "the emotions I feel"

> "If people had to see their livestock suffer, they would make a different calculation"

Should probably be "seeing it changed how I feel".

People are more than the sum of our experiences, two people raised in the same environment with the same kind of experiences can have completely divergent values. Therefore it's wrong to assume that people would share your values if they had your experiences. In the case of meat eating particularly this should be obvious; the reality is that most people exposed to the industry, either for the first time as adults or as kids, don't turn vegetarian.

Re: George Carlin's "Soft Language" (2019)

#230
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He would have had a field day if he was alive. It is a loss for all of us that he is gone. Still, we now have Chapelle, who is building similiar legacy and potentially Bill Burr one day. Absolute agreement on the philosopher/jester vibes.

Dave Chappelle is the most overrated standup comedian in the world right now. He was funny before he left. He shouldn't have come back. He is now a cheap reactionary. He is not even in the same league as George Carlin.

Carlin was always a cheap reactionary. we are just a generation past what he was reacting to
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