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France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

bbc.com

41–50 of 198 posts

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#41
post #37
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is mostly about searching for the solutions that would prevent people from abusing the fundamental rights to advance their anti-democracy agenda.

That's not how fundamental rights are meant to work. I'm not a monarchist, but I'm happy to allow monarchists (or communists, or Sharia folk, or Baptists) to push for that form of government. Democracy is a durable form of government unless it's systemically broken.

The 18th-century revolutions that were centered around fundamental rights of man, were pretty hostile to monarchy. France famously guillotined supporters of the monarchy. Even the USA tarred and feathered loyalists or drove them into exile in Canada or the Caribbean. It was only years later, once monarchy wasn’t a realistic possibility any more (or, in France, the public mood had come around to monarchy again) that such advocacy was permitted again. And then later movements for instituting a non-democratic regime, namely fascism or communism, got various degrees of prohibition. So, I’d say it’s pretty normal even for successful democracies to interpret fundamental rights in that light.

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#42

Why are people calling them hate rallies? Because their immediate response to an unprecedented atrocity was to spontaneously organize a public celebration. It's like organizing a "pro-German but not pro-Nazi" march the day after Kristallnacht, with banners and chants glorifying the violence. Nobody is fooled and every normal person with a shred of empathy is disgusted. Watch a crowd cheer for a speaker who says that…

> Why are people calling them hate rallies? Because their immediate response to an unprecedented atrocity was to spontaneously organize a public celebration. Yeah, and? I want these people to go mask-off. Silencing them just gives them plausible deniability, and that's what we can't afford to let them have if we really want to fight and defeat them politically. Did we do a better job fighting the American far-right b…

"I want these people to go mask-off."

This is something that I want too, and I am surprised by the fact that many people would rather prefer not to know.

As if pushing Hamas sympathizers underground would "disappear" them.

Western Europe has a huge problem with Islamic radicalism and it should face this problem without any self-delusions.

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#43

Why are people calling them hate rallies? Because their immediate response to an unprecedented atrocity was to spontaneously organize a public celebration. It's like organizing a "pro-German but not pro-Nazi" march the day after Kristallnacht, with banners and chants glorifying the violence. Nobody is fooled and every normal person with a shred of empathy is disgusted. Watch a crowd cheer for a speaker who says that…

> Why are people calling them hate rallies? Because their immediate response to an unprecedented atrocity was to spontaneously organize a public celebration. Yeah, and? I want these people to go mask-off. Silencing them just gives them plausible deniability, and that's what we can't afford to let them have if we really want to fight and defeat them politically. Did we do a better job fighting the American far-right b…

But there's a risk like: "look eu is allowing terrorist cheering events!" But imo eu failed in this direction too bc most countries lack a proper integration program so that ppl either adapt to live in a democracy or gtfo of the eu if they don't like it

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#44
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Multiple governments have already come to feel that the sort of rhetoric that appears at these demonstrations, like chanting “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”, crosses the line into advocacy of genocide and are not mere opinions. Advocacy of genocide has been forbidden since long before COVID happened. It’s important to remember that after the Holocaust, European nations have a special responsibilit…

> Advocacy of genocide has been forbidden since long before COVID happened. Really? Cause I remember post-9/11 it was a pretty mainstream opinion that America should go glass the middle east. And then, you know, America went and actually did start an awful, bloody war in the middle east that lasted for 20+ years. It was the anti-war people who were getting censored and accused of being terrorist sympathizers.

France refused to go to war in Iraq which pissed the US so much they renamed french fries to freedom fries.

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, democracies have to have limits what they tolerate. Killing civilians just because they have a certain religion is incompatible with western values. The limit should be too not be tolerant with people that are not willing to provide the same tolerance. By that standard celebrating the killing of civilians we shouldn't tolerate.

That isn't what they banned, they banned pro Palestine demonstrations. Not a mention of Hamas.

The problems were not the demonstrations, it was the barrage of death threats against Jews (inside France). Which were linked and exacerbated because of the demonstrations.

The demonstrations themselves are acceptable - but the linked death threats definitely aren't, and unfortunately the state apparatus is not set up to deal adequately with the latter.

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#47

Why are people calling them hate rallies? Because their immediate response to an unprecedented atrocity was to spontaneously organize a public celebration. It's like organizing a "pro-German but not pro-Nazi" march the day after Kristallnacht, with banners and chants glorifying the violence. Nobody is fooled and every normal person with a shred of empathy is disgusted. Watch a crowd cheer for a speaker who says that…

> Why are people calling them hate rallies? Because their immediate response to an unprecedented atrocity was to spontaneously organize a public celebration. Yeah, and? I want these people to go mask-off. Silencing them just gives them plausible deniability, and that's what we can't afford to let them have if we really want to fight and defeat them politically. Did we do a better job fighting the American far-right b…

Which is why facism in america completely died out after Charlottesville and the completely mask off "blood and soil" march? No? There are still honest to god nazis, swastika and all, protesting in Florida. Supporters of what happened in Charlottesville still have millions of causal followers, and militias are probably having no issue recruiting.

This is why the ACLU stopped carrying water for facists: The "marketplace of ideas" has not seemed to work, and in general, globally, desire for authoritarianism is increasing as people feel squeezed and stressed and scared, basically the same as it always happens.

So we espoused this pro-speech plan, and then spent decades educating on the values of democracy and how obviously better it is than facism or other forms of authoritarianism, and then the second things get a little scary people turned to easy solutions of "Just hate that out group" like they always do.

It's like humans mostly work on emotions and aren't perfectly logical creatures or something, and addictive emotional stuff is just better at spreading than the nuance of reality.

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#49
post #21
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This censorship is in a capital of a western power. We can condemn Hamas AND condemn failing democratic society by not upholding basic freedoms that built it.

The censorship is likely an uncomfortable trade-off. In an ideal world, we would allow speech and carefully police when that speech turns into death threats or violent action.

However, state capabilities and surveillance capabilities are not sufficient in the west for the second part of that. So the devil's compromise is to restrict the former (because people who would be motivated to issue death threats or commit violent actions are frequently encouraged by the former actions of free speech).

Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why are people calling them hate rallies? Because their immediate response to an unprecedented atrocity was to spontaneously organize a public celebration. Yeah, and? I want these people to go mask-off. Silencing them just gives them plausible deniability, and that's what we can't afford to let them have if we really want to fight and defeat them politically. Did we do a better job fighting the American far-right b…

"I want these people to go mask-off." This is something that I want too, and I am surprised by the fact that many people would rather prefer not to know. As if pushing Hamas sympathizers underground would "disappear" them. Western Europe has a huge problem with Islamic radicalism and it should face this problem without any self-delusions.

The good news is that these people are so committed to their cause that they're willing to go to jail for it. From that perspective, it's a win-win. Everyone gets to see them show the world what they are, and then to see them disavowed by society.
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