Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think this is mostly about searching for the solutions that would prevent people from abusing the fundamental rights to advance their anti-democracy agenda.
That's not how fundamental rights are meant to work. I'm not a monarchist, but I'm happy to allow monarchists (or communists, or Sharia folk, or Baptists) to push for that form of government. Democracy is a durable form of government unless it's systemically broken.
France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations
41–50 of 198 posts
Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations
#42Why are people calling them hate rallies? Because their immediate response to an unprecedented atrocity was to spontaneously organize a public celebration. It's like organizing a "pro-German but not pro-Nazi" march the day after Kristallnacht, with banners and chants glorifying the violence. Nobody is fooled and every normal person with a shred of empathy is disgusted. Watch a crowd cheer for a speaker who says that…
> Why are people calling them hate rallies? Because their immediate response to an unprecedented atrocity was to spontaneously organize a public celebration. Yeah, and? I want these people to go mask-off. Silencing them just gives them plausible deniability, and that's what we can't afford to let them have if we really want to fight and defeat them politically. Did we do a better job fighting the American far-right b…
This is something that I want too, and I am surprised by the fact that many people would rather prefer not to know.
As if pushing Hamas sympathizers underground would "disappear" them.
Western Europe has a huge problem with Islamic radicalism and it should face this problem without any self-delusions.
Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations
#43Why are people calling them hate rallies? Because their immediate response to an unprecedented atrocity was to spontaneously organize a public celebration. It's like organizing a "pro-German but not pro-Nazi" march the day after Kristallnacht, with banners and chants glorifying the violence. Nobody is fooled and every normal person with a shred of empathy is disgusted. Watch a crowd cheer for a speaker who says that…
> Why are people calling them hate rallies? Because their immediate response to an unprecedented atrocity was to spontaneously organize a public celebration. Yeah, and? I want these people to go mask-off. Silencing them just gives them plausible deniability, and that's what we can't afford to let them have if we really want to fight and defeat them politically. Did we do a better job fighting the American far-right b…
Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
Multiple governments have already come to feel that the sort of rhetoric that appears at these demonstrations, like chanting “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”, crosses the line into advocacy of genocide and are not mere opinions. Advocacy of genocide has been forbidden since long before COVID happened. It’s important to remember that after the Holocaust, European nations have a special responsibilit…
> Advocacy of genocide has been forbidden since long before COVID happened. Really? Cause I remember post-9/11 it was a pretty mainstream opinion that America should go glass the middle east. And then, you know, America went and actually did start an awful, bloody war in the middle east that lasted for 20+ years. It was the anti-war people who were getting censored and accused of being terrorist sympathizers.
Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, democracies have to have limits what they tolerate. Killing civilians just because they have a certain religion is incompatible with western values. The limit should be too not be tolerant with people that are not willing to provide the same tolerance. By that standard celebrating the killing of civilians we shouldn't tolerate.
That isn't what they banned, they banned pro Palestine demonstrations. Not a mention of Hamas.
The demonstrations themselves are acceptable - but the linked death threats definitely aren't, and unfortunately the state apparatus is not set up to deal adequately with the latter.
Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations
#46Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations
#47Why are people calling them hate rallies? Because their immediate response to an unprecedented atrocity was to spontaneously organize a public celebration. It's like organizing a "pro-German but not pro-Nazi" march the day after Kristallnacht, with banners and chants glorifying the violence. Nobody is fooled and every normal person with a shred of empathy is disgusted. Watch a crowd cheer for a speaker who says that…
> Why are people calling them hate rallies? Because their immediate response to an unprecedented atrocity was to spontaneously organize a public celebration. Yeah, and? I want these people to go mask-off. Silencing them just gives them plausible deniability, and that's what we can't afford to let them have if we really want to fight and defeat them politically. Did we do a better job fighting the American far-right b…
This is why the ACLU stopped carrying water for facists: The "marketplace of ideas" has not seemed to work, and in general, globally, desire for authoritarianism is increasing as people feel squeezed and stressed and scared, basically the same as it always happens.
So we espoused this pro-speech plan, and then spent decades educating on the values of democracy and how obviously better it is than facism or other forms of authoritarianism, and then the second things get a little scary people turned to easy solutions of "Just hate that out group" like they always do.
It's like humans mostly work on emotions and aren't perfectly logical creatures or something, and addictive emotional stuff is just better at spreading than the nuance of reality.
Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations
#48Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
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This censorship is in a capital of a western power. We can condemn Hamas AND condemn failing democratic society by not upholding basic freedoms that built it.
However, state capabilities and surveillance capabilities are not sufficient in the west for the second part of that. So the devil's compromise is to restrict the former (because people who would be motivated to issue death threats or commit violent actions are frequently encouraged by the former actions of free speech).
Re: France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Why are people calling them hate rallies? Because their immediate response to an unprecedented atrocity was to spontaneously organize a public celebration. Yeah, and? I want these people to go mask-off. Silencing them just gives them plausible deniability, and that's what we can't afford to let them have if we really want to fight and defeat them politically. Did we do a better job fighting the American far-right b…
"I want these people to go mask-off." This is something that I want too, and I am surprised by the fact that many people would rather prefer not to know. As if pushing Hamas sympathizers underground would "disappear" them. Western Europe has a huge problem with Islamic radicalism and it should face this problem without any self-delusions.