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Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

theguardian.com

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Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#151

Post by cmrdporcupine »

jeffbee wrote: post #63
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't speak to Sweden, but it is a shame what has happened with the PHEV category generally. I drive a Volt and it's a fantastic car in that it's really more like "electric car that also has a gas engine" vs the bulk of PHEVs on the market which are really "hybrid that can be plugged in to get a few miles of somewhat-gas free driving." The latter seem to have been designed and sold mainly to skirt some regulations an…

Around here the Clarity PHEV are seen daily (I own one). I don't know if that was because of subsidies/incentives or what. In my use case the ~35 mile EV range is perfect and like you I experience the engine running only when the computer commands maintenance cycles, or if I take a long trip and it flips into HV mode. Considering the embodied energy of a full EV especially in the year that I bought the Clarity, I sti…

Yeah the Clarity was only really produced in volume as a compliance car in states that mandated it, though. It never really showed up around here (Ontario) for example.

Whereas GM rolled out the Volt across all their dealerships everywhere -- though obviously sales only really happened in places with incentives.

Technically on paper the Clarity PHEV looks on par with the Volt; but Honda didn't really want to sell it ... and GM killed the Volt. So that category of vehicle (range assisted EV instead of "PHEV") seems DOA.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#152

Post by triceratops »

DrThunder wrote: post #40
f6v wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does Western life experience necessitate a car? Big cities don’t require a car at all.

Why is what's "required" a consideration? Almost nothing in modern life is required. You don't need AC, heat, refrigeration, video games, movies etc. NONE of that is a requirement and it all contributes to climate change. Part of living in a free society is that you get to have things that aren't required. IF I want to buy the biggest gas guzzling truck there is, I should have the right to do so since I'll be spendin…

You're free to do so if you also buy your own exclusive air supply that never touches our air. And never drive on public roads that everyone else pays for and uses - because then you are contributing to road wear and higher accident rates. Otherwise the rest of us retain the right to put limits on your "freedom".

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#153

Post by athenot »

eptcyka wrote: post #88
CalRobert wrote: post #20

It's small, but it's a start. Next, remove as many cars as possible (some deliveries, taxis, and emergency vehicles make sense, as well as microcars for people who need them, of course). I'm appalled at the people here saying you need a car to lead a full life. A car-dependent life is an empty and sad one for many of us. I moved to the Netherlands with my family (two young daughters) and it has been _absolutely fanta…

Having lived in some places around Europe, my quality of life is always increased by owning a motor vehicle. I do not use it daily, I do not commute with it, but there are trips which are far more practical with a personal motor vehicle than otherwise, like fetching people from an airport, taking a pet to a vet, driving further out for a hike, hauling groceries.

Having lived in both Europe and the US, yes you are correct that owning a vehicle does make many things more practical.

On the flip side, being required to drive everywhere because there is no transit option is a negative impact on quality of life, especially in cities.

Ultimately it comes down to how good the transit infrastructure is. Some cities make transit feel effortless and get you anywhere you need to be; others make you battle your way through it and lose a lot of time.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#154

Post by gruturo »

qwytw wrote: post #104
gruturo wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Don't let perfect be the enemy of good 2) For the record EV use 99% regenerative braking so at least that source is practically zero 3) Decoupling CO2 emissions from the car means you can upgrade your power grid to be greener without having to replace all the cars already circulating. It's an enormous advantage which should be given due consideration. Also, it's easier to manage the emission of all the CO2 in one…

> For the record EV use 99% regenerative braking so at least that source is practically zero 99% or "practically zero" are hugely overexaggerated claims but yes it's an improvement > Really, really, don't let perfect be the enemy of good, please. That's an awful reason to not talk about something. Yes it's an improvement but switching to EVs won't magically eliminate car related pollution in cities (not even remotely…

> 99% or "practically zero" are hugely overexaggerated claims but yes it's an improvement

A lot of cars support "one-pedal driving" where only regenerative braking is used. The brake pedal is literally just used in case of emergencies. As this becomes the default on more models, yes, I fully expect we will achieve that "practically zero".

I'm wondering what can be done for the tires (not just for EVs, also for ICEs and especially for heavier vehicles), where I think tire manufacturers ultimately have the opposite incentive (if your tires shed more material, they have to be replaced sooner, which increases their recurring revenues, so maybe they didn't spend too much R&D in that direction....)

> That's an awful reason to not talk about something. Yes it's an improvement but switching to EVs won't magically eliminate car related pollution in cities (not even remotely close to that) which is something some people seem to believe (and they really shouldn't)

I really have to disagree here. EVs are silent (so silent they had to be fitted with a noisemaker to make them more detectable by pedestrians), they don't pollute the air with combustion products make the air terrible (some of this pollution is happening elsewhere when fossil fuels are used - that's on a downward trend and I want to argue it's still a net win, not happening right next to where a lot of people breathe), they produce "practically zero" (yeah I insist) PM2.5 - PM1.0 particles from braking, there is almost only tire wear pollution.

It may not be perfect, but it's a pretty strong improvement in quality of life compared to the actual situation - have you "tasted" the air in Paris on a busy winter evening while walking through the city? It's awful. In the future we will look at this stuff like we are finally starting to look at cigarette smoke. And the noise... just terrible.

Do you have a better proposal which can be realistically (yeah banning all cars ain't gonna cut it, people won't, and will vote out politicians who try) applied to the situation, with results available on the same timescale of the EV transition - which is already happening by itself? If yes, let us know, and let's discussing moving all the EV incentives towards your better solution.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#155

Post by orangepurple »

supriyo-biswas wrote: post #96
eptcyka wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having lived in some places around Europe, my quality of life is always increased by owning a motor vehicle. I do not use it daily, I do not commute with it, but there are trips which are far more practical with a personal motor vehicle than otherwise, like fetching people from an airport, taking a pet to a vet, driving further out for a hike, hauling groceries.

Maybe some sort of distance-dependent taxation on cars may be a more viable option, so that people can enjoy private commutes when they absolutely need it, while still pushing people towards public transport.

France is like this. Massive amount of toll roads.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#156

Post by pornel »

verisimi wrote: post #59

The people in nordic countries seem so naive to me. They trust their governments, their authorities to do this stuff, to both determine the greater good and then implement it. The political class couldn't possibly act immorally, for their own benefit, apparently. Whereas the reality is that these actions are preplanned internationally and designed (by opaque agencies such the club of Rome and the UN) in order for ind…

US seems to be an exception in the developed world with such high distrust of the government.

It's probably a self-fulfilling expectation: the government can't be effective without trust. Without support, it can't pass strong regulations that make a difference. So you get an ineffective government, and watered-down lobbied laws that easily fall to regulatory capture, and you can say "told you so!"

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#157

Post by triceratops »

dingnuts wrote: post #116
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

~50% of Americans are sedentary and obese. They're obviously going to want cars. Walking & cycling are not options (see sedentary).

There are also disabled and elderly people. Try walking and cycling to get your groceries with multiple sclerosis or a couple bad hips. Cars are awesome.

Golf carts?

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#158

Post by RandomLensman »

eptcyka wrote: post #88
CalRobert wrote: post #20

It's small, but it's a start. Next, remove as many cars as possible (some deliveries, taxis, and emergency vehicles make sense, as well as microcars for people who need them, of course). I'm appalled at the people here saying you need a car to lead a full life. A car-dependent life is an empty and sad one for many of us. I moved to the Netherlands with my family (two young daughters) and it has been _absolutely fanta…

Having lived in some places around Europe, my quality of life is always increased by owning a motor vehicle. I do not use it daily, I do not commute with it, but there are trips which are far more practical with a personal motor vehicle than otherwise, like fetching people from an airport, taking a pet to a vet, driving further out for a hike, hauling groceries.

I had opposite experience: not owning a car and only on occasion renting a car, using a taxi etc. made my life in big cities much easier.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#159

Post by Tade0 »

throwaw33333434 wrote: post #117

I wonder why when Stockholm did it, it made the news, but, say Kraków did it we don't see it. City pays for PR?

Does it matter? Kraków is doing its own thing without much fanfare and I think it's great.

I went there a few weeks ago for the first time in 6 years or so and could easily identify positive changes that make living there more pleasant.

Also while driving was a little slow (as usual), I had no problem finding (paid) parking close to the old town.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#160

Post by edpichler »

ecmascript wrote: post #36

As a Swede born and raised in Stockholm but no longer live there I wonder if delivery trucks and people working (carpenters etc) will be excempt from these rules? This is a serious question because the changes comes (mainly) from a radical left wing political party that had deliveries on the subway as a serious solution to banning car traffic. Personally I don't really care since I don't live in Stockholm anymore but…

I agree with you.

It is an emotional decision. Politics is all about emotionalism. Now everybody that like or work there will need to have buy a te$la or pole$tar.

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