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Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

theguardian.com

61–70 of 250 posts

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#61
post #38
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally people with children dont live in the center of Stockholm and a high % already drive electric. Biggest change is that delivery/transport services have to find alternatives and Im really happy about that, everyone benifit from removing "heavy loud polluting traffic" in the city.

> "heavy loud polluting traffic" in the city. yeah, that's great but.. Modern engines are already pretty "clean", significant proportion (if not the majority?) of PM 2.5 and PM 0.1 particles come from breaks and tires so EV are not really the solution for inner city pollution. (and the effect on CO2 emissions is immaterial in this case)

1) Don't let perfect be the enemy of good

2) For the record EV use 99% regenerative braking so at least that source is practically zero

3) Decoupling CO2 emissions from the car means you can upgrade your power grid to be greener without having to replace all the cars already circulating. It's an enormous advantage which should be given due consideration. Also, it's easier to manage the emission of all the CO2 in one place, and mandate better filters/capture systems there, than just spew it out of every individual exhaust pipe, where many capture systems are not feasible due to cost, size or other consideration.

But, most importantly, let me repeat:

Really, really, don't let perfect be the enemy of good, please.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#62
post #11
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see they went with the "think of the children": > The study found that children who grow up on roads in the capital with particularly high emissions have worse-than-average lung capacity when compared to other children, from as early as six months old. This will only accelerate the move to the suburbs of the families having children themselves and who can't yet afford an EV, leaving the cities themselves (as I susp…

> not-interested in having a full Western-life experience (which necessitates having a car) American life experience, you mean? It's totally OK to live in Stockholm, as well as in many other cities in Europe, without a car. Besides, you make it sound like EVs are more expensive than ICE cars. They surely are, but the difference is not that much and subsidies cover a part of it.

> It's totally OK to live in Stockholm

Not really. You can usually (sort of) take public transport to commute into the centre, but try to do anything else and the model falls apart quickly.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#63
post #18

Interesting that this bans PHEVs, because that is a substantial share of the EVs sold in Sweden, being about a third of EV sales and a fifth of total car sales recently. It seems like this will help kill the category.

Can't speak to Sweden, but it is a shame what has happened with the PHEV category generally. I drive a Volt and it's a fantastic car in that it's really more like "electric car that also has a gas engine" vs the bulk of PHEVs on the market which are really "hybrid that can be plugged in to get a few miles of somewhat-gas free driving." The latter seem to have been designed and sold mainly to skirt some regulations an…

Around here the Clarity PHEV are seen daily (I own one). I don't know if that was because of subsidies/incentives or what. In my use case the ~35 mile EV range is perfect and like you I experience the engine running only when the computer commands maintenance cycles, or if I take a long trip and it flips into HV mode. Considering the embodied energy of a full EV especially in the year that I bought the Clarity, I still think it was the right choice at the time.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#64
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does Western life experience necessitate a car? Big cities don’t require a car at all.

Why is what's "required" a consideration? Almost nothing in modern life is required. You don't need AC, heat, refrigeration, video games, movies etc. NONE of that is a requirement and it all contributes to climate change. Part of living in a free society is that you get to have things that aren't required. IF I want to buy the biggest gas guzzling truck there is, I should have the right to do so since I'll be spendin…

The people placing power in the hands of representatives through democratic elections, choosing not to have the biggest gas guzzling trucks on their inner city streets.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean like basically all kids in Munich do, just as an example? Regarding this "better school" thing, that seems to be an almost exclusive US problem.

> that seems to be an almost exclusive US problem On what basis?

That all the public schools I know in Europe, either directly or indirectly, are pretty much of the same quality (differences for specific teachers not withstanding).

Sending kids to a different school comes down to personal preferences, ranging from available languages to a school being along the commute of a parent or simple preference of tue kid in question. Selecting where to life based on school quality is simply not a thing I know. I do hear a ton of that from the US so.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#66

The people in nordic countries seem so naive to me. They trust their governments, their authorities to do this stuff, to both determine the greater good and then implement it. The political class couldn't possibly act immorally, for their own benefit, apparently. Whereas the reality is that these actions are preplanned internationally and designed (by opaque agencies such the club of Rome and the UN) in order for ind…

You know what's even more shocking about the attitude of the nordic countries? It works pretty nicely, try visiting those places.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#67

As a Swede born and raised in Stockholm but no longer live there I wonder if delivery trucks and people working (carpenters etc) will be excempt from these rules? This is a serious question because the changes comes (mainly) from a radical left wing political party that had deliveries on the subway as a serious solution to banning car traffic. Personally I don't really care since I don't live in Stockholm anymore but…

Why can carpenters not drive electric vehicles?

Usually because they are too small but that will also force everyone to buy new cars which isn't exactly ideal for the climate or the economy of these people affected. Cars in Sweden already cost like the double amount of a car in the US.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#68

It's small, but it's a start. Next, remove as many cars as possible (some deliveries, taxis, and emergency vehicles make sense, as well as microcars for people who need them, of course). I'm appalled at the people here saying you need a car to lead a full life. A car-dependent life is an empty and sad one for many of us. I moved to the Netherlands with my family (two young daughters) and it has been _absolutely fanta…

Yet the overwhelming majority of people in the Netherlands still uses cars as their primary method of transport:

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

of course if you moved there from the USA (which I assume you did?) the car situation there is not that much better than other European countries.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#69
post #58
post #21

I think it's absolutely crazy that our society is OK with car drivers polluting the air with carcinogenic particles. I hope more cities around the world implement similar bans soon.

EVs are not the solution for that, brake and tire wear contribute to as much or more PM2.5 and 2-3 times more PM10 pollution than modern ICEs . Also while there will be some improvement it will be possibly partially outweighed by the fact the EVs generally weight more. Of course we can just ignore that which is not at all crazy... Edit: I'm certainly not using this as argument to not ban ICE vehicles in city centers.…

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Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#70
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see they went with the "think of the children": > The study found that children who grow up on roads in the capital with particularly high emissions have worse-than-average lung capacity when compared to other children, from as early as six months old. This will only accelerate the move to the suburbs of the families having children themselves and who can't yet afford an EV, leaving the cities themselves (as I susp…

I don't think this deserves to be downvoted. Alas the "you'll own nothing and you'll like it" / "you'll go where we say according to our schedules and you'll like it" crowd is strong here. You're right of course that not having a car self-evidently limits the things you can do (yes even in your country that has flawless transit that is free and goes "everywhere"), and is even worse if you have children. Want to go to…

In some countries, every single house or business is either walking distance from a transit stop, or for the few exceptions there is a taxpayer funded 'bus' service that operates like a taxi.
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