Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics • Hacker News Board

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#61

Post by robertlagrant » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 4:37 PM UTC

lb1lf wrote: post #42

audunw wrote: post #7

It’s great to bring this problem up. But the focus on EVs is a distraction. > EVs tend to shed around 20 percent more from their tires due to their higher weight and high torque compared to traditional internal combustion engine-powered vehicles. It’s covered in this panel discussion on Fully Charged: https://youtu.be/LeHakmL6eEc?si=ebBAn8RSDhmmLfHI Fleet operators don’t see any significant difference in tire wear. E…

Batteries are still heavy. For instance, the VW id.3 (small-ish EV) has a curb weight 250-450kg (550-1,000lbs) more than my wife's gasoline VW Passat, a quite spacious estate wagon.

I doubt an ID3 weighs only half a ton. Probably at least three times that?

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#62

Post by ilyt » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 4:37 PM UTC

lb1lf wrote: post #48

modeless wrote: post #2

I'm glad people are looking at how to reduce the impact of tire dust. I expect we can make big improvements because it's not something we've optimized for yet. Not mentioned in the article is that EVs also dramatically reduce brake dust because the brakes are hardly used compared to an ICE car.

Surely brake dust must be negligible compared to tire and asphalt dust? I recently replaced the brake pads on my Land Cruiser; 70,000km (45,000 miles) since they were last replaced. This is a large, heavy 4x4, yet the amount of brake liner worn from the pads must have been on the order of a pound, if not less.

> Surely brake dust must be negligible compared to tire and asphalt dust?

Brake dust is kinda different problem. Yeah it puts particles in the air, but most of it is pretty biodegradable (carbon and iron), and rest of it could probably be made that - technically loss of efficiency here could be compensated for, which is far harder for tyres.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#63

Post by hyperhopper » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 4:38 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #46

bedobi wrote: post #34

Typical hackernews to have threads full of well meaning but ultimately misguided people saying ah we have some technological solution for this. The solution to this problem and every other problem caused by driving is not driving . Period. Not driving doesn't require any new technology, it just requires getting serious about alternatives to driving. (safe, separated bike ways, ebike and micromobility subsidies, rail,…

In other words: you're proposing to replace a set of possible, if difficult, technological solutions, with an near-impossible social solution. I'd call that misguided. Technological solutions tend to be discussed because they can be implemented. Social solutions may work better, but only in imaginary la-la land where they can actually be put into practice. In the real world, you can't " just " get people to not drive…

It's not impossible, much of the world operates without 99.9% car usage like the USA.

Every major European city metro area can be traversed without a car. Hell I went through 18 countries and 35+ cities in Europe without renting a car and only using a bus or plane maybe 4-5 times.

This is an entirely self-made problem. A world not reliant on cars is not la-la land. It's a land where a car isn't treated as more important than a human, which should be the norm and is known to work in many other first world countries.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#64

Post by pstuart » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 4:38 PM UTC

kylebenzle wrote: post #28

blackoil wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it be still cheaper if all tires are made from natural rubber. We shouldn't have old forests destroyed for rubber plantations.

There are two main working solutions that have ALREADY been used and proven to work since WWII. First: a fungal disease has wiped out ALL the rubber trees in south america, thats why we cant grow in it the Western hemisphere, a fungus. If we could grow it here we would and it would drop the price by A LOT. But, we already have a solution, a transgenic species that is resistant, nonsense Government regulation and moro…

Fascinating fact about dandelions! A nice Fraunhofer video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvVJL2GYRHY

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#65

Post by mzmzmzm » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 4:38 PM UTC

audunw wrote: post #7

It’s great to bring this problem up. But the focus on EVs is a distraction. > EVs tend to shed around 20 percent more from their tires due to their higher weight and high torque compared to traditional internal combustion engine-powered vehicles. It’s covered in this panel discussion on Fully Charged: https://youtu.be/LeHakmL6eEc?si=ebBAn8RSDhmmLfHI Fleet operators don’t see any significant difference in tire wear. E…

I think your final point is key. Apart from curb weight, the reason to emphasize EVs might be just to remind people that they're not a panacea for the environmental collapse we're speeding towards. Instead of inventivizing car-free and car-light living, policymakers would rather not distrupt anything, simply swapping EVs for ICE vehicles in the same miserable sprawl. Yale's findings underline that this can't happen.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#66

Post by mplewis » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 4:38 PM UTC

throwaway920102 wrote: post #59

bedobi wrote: post #34

Typical hackernews to have threads full of well meaning but ultimately misguided people saying ah we have some technological solution for this. The solution to this problem and every other problem caused by driving is not driving . Period. Not driving doesn't require any new technology, it just requires getting serious about alternatives to driving. (safe, separated bike ways, ebike and micromobility subsidies, rail,…

Or you know we could just all kill ourselves and that would solve the problem too but people like realistic solutions. Natural rubber exists and we don't have to use synthetic compounds in tires, we can just have shittier tires. Why do you propose no driving rather than shittier, more expensive driving?

No one suggested you kill yourself. Just that we build more trains you can take.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#67

Post by ilyt » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 4:38 PM UTC

inferiorhuman wrote: post #14

idiotsecant wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent post brought up brake dust, which is not what this article is about. EVs definitely put less wear on brakes but that has nothing to do with microplastics.

That said brake dust is an environmental problem.

But most of it does biodegrade so it is short time problem vs very long time problem.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#68

Post by mplewis » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 4:38 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #46

bedobi wrote: post #34

Typical hackernews to have threads full of well meaning but ultimately misguided people saying ah we have some technological solution for this. The solution to this problem and every other problem caused by driving is not driving . Period. Not driving doesn't require any new technology, it just requires getting serious about alternatives to driving. (safe, separated bike ways, ebike and micromobility subsidies, rail,…

In other words: you're proposing to replace a set of possible, if difficult, technological solutions, with an near-impossible social solution. I'd call that misguided. Technological solutions tend to be discussed because they can be implemented. Social solutions may work better, but only in imaginary la-la land where they can actually be put into practice. In the real world, you can't " just " get people to not drive…

Trains aren’t difficult technical solutions.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#69

Post by undersuit » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 4:39 PM UTC

jayd16 wrote: post #58

undersuit wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Do we want 100-people in a neighborhood driving 100x cars to a store? Or would we rather have 1x large truck deliver a (heavier) package to 100x different people? Why can't the majority of the people walk to a store and the rest can be serviced by a smaller truck?

I wouldn't mind walking to the store now and then but usually I make fewer trips for more than I could carry.

So you're going to drive a multi-ton vehicle instead of bringing a folding cart?

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#70

Post by downWidOutaFite » Sun, Oct 01, 2023, 4:39 PM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #25

audunw wrote: post #7

It’s great to bring this problem up. But the focus on EVs is a distraction. > EVs tend to shed around 20 percent more from their tires due to their higher weight and high torque compared to traditional internal combustion engine-powered vehicles. It’s covered in this panel discussion on Fully Charged: https://youtu.be/LeHakmL6eEc?si=ebBAn8RSDhmmLfHI Fleet operators don’t see any significant difference in tire wear. E…

> EVs have higher torque but that doesn’t matter unless to drive like a mad-man Its not torque that matters. Its simply friction and normal force. And that's directly caused by weight. Tire Wear is something like (weight^4), so small increases in weight will have huge increases to wear-and-tear. --------- I think the real issue is that 3000lbs to 4500lbs, while a significant increase in tire wear, is still small comp…

I was in the market for a small electric city car and found out that we're not allowed to have small cars in the US. Europe and Asia have really nice small city cars under 2,000lbs but none of them are available here. I believe the smallest car sold in the US is the Mini Cooper around 3,000lbs. I actually ended up with a souped up street legal golf cart and it's worked out well for my purposes of picking up kids and groceries within a 5 mile radius, though I'm in the Bay Area where the weather is not too extreme most of the year. I'm not sure why this market is neglected.