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Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

thedrive.com

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Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#21

Post by kylebenzle »

chmod600 wrote: post #18
kylebenzle wrote: post #15

I worked on a phd for 4 years looking into this problem indirectly and for a decade at Ohio State they have had working solutions to the tire dust issue but it is IMPOSSIBLE to get funding. A Billion dollar industry and NO ONE cares about cleaning it up if it means increasing costs by 5% or more. It has been WELL KNOWN for 50 years! We are basically aerosolizing carbon in MASSIVE amounts right where we live and work.…

Chemically speaking, how is natural rubber different from plastic while still having such similar properties?

Great question! Its super simple, it is ONLY the length of the hydrocarbon chain, a better quality natural rubber has really long chains (10,000+ atoms long) that last a LONG time and are VERY stretchy. Synthetic rubber (or plastic) is shorter (1,000 atoms long) and doesn't last as long.

Thats it, it is the exact same "product" just a chain that gets longer and longer and changes its physical properties as it grows.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#22

Post by christkv »

kylebenzle wrote: post #17
modeless wrote: post #2

I'm glad people are looking at how to reduce the impact of tire dust. I expect we can make big improvements because it's not something we've optimized for yet. Not mentioned in the article is that EVs also dramatically reduce brake dust because the brakes are hardly used compared to an ICE car.

I worked on this indirectly for 4 as as part of a pdh at Ohio State. We have had the solution to this problem since then but because natural rubber is slightly less profitable for the companies (it lasts too long and it too high quality) they use synthetic rubber. Tire dust is a problem becuase we WANT it to be a problem the solution is available but it is impossible to get funding because the tire companies don't wa…

I was going to say natural rubber seems like the logical solution for this.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#23

Post by richjdsmith »

With the continued shift to EVs, petrol taxes just don't make sense as a form of taxation to pay for roads. I think we should be shifting entirely to a gross curb weight tax for all vehicles. The fourth power law states that the greater the axle load of a vehicle, the stress on the road caused by the motor vehicle increases in proportion to the fourth power of the axle load. Meaning heavier EVs cough hummer, are doing x^4 damage over my already heavy car.

Capturing vehicle taxes by weight should incentivize lighter vehicles, and therefore, less tire wear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_power_law

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#24

Post by cscurmudgeon »

audunw wrote: post #7

It’s great to bring this problem up. But the focus on EVs is a distraction. > EVs tend to shed around 20 percent more from their tires due to their higher weight and high torque compared to traditional internal combustion engine-powered vehicles. It’s covered in this panel discussion on Fully Charged: https://youtu.be/LeHakmL6eEc?si=ebBAn8RSDhmmLfHI Fleet operators don’t see any significant difference in tire wear. E…

> What we need to focus on is infrastructure for walking, biking and public transportation.

And better tires.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#25

Post by dragontamer »

audunw wrote: post #7

It’s great to bring this problem up. But the focus on EVs is a distraction. > EVs tend to shed around 20 percent more from their tires due to their higher weight and high torque compared to traditional internal combustion engine-powered vehicles. It’s covered in this panel discussion on Fully Charged: https://youtu.be/LeHakmL6eEc?si=ebBAn8RSDhmmLfHI Fleet operators don’t see any significant difference in tire wear. E…

> EVs have higher torque but that doesn’t matter unless to drive like a mad-man

Its not torque that matters. Its simply friction and normal force. And that's directly caused by weight. Tire Wear is something like (weight^4), so small increases in weight will have huge increases to wear-and-tear.

---------

I think the real issue is that 3000lbs to 4500lbs, while a significant increase in tire wear, is still small compared to the big 5000lb to 8000lb vehicles that people use in practice. I'm sure a 4500lb EV is bad, but I'd expect a 6000 lb SUV or Truck to be worse (and a 8000lb electric-SUV to be the absolute worst).

But beyond just consumer cars are semi-trucks, which almost certainly are the top tire-wear vehicles on the roads. I'd expect almost all of the plastic from "tire wear" to come from a semi-truck (again, weight to the power of 4), given their grossly increased weight.

> walking, biking and public transportation

Semi-trucks are replaced by trains. Not by walking and biking. I mean, I want more walkable paths and all. But this _particular_ problem is solved with freight trains.

Last-mile is difficult. Do we want 100-people in a neighborhood driving 100x cars to a store? Or would we rather have 1x large truck deliver a (heavier) package to 100x different people? We're screwed in both cases, and rail can't save us.

But trains don't use rubber and trains wheels / rails are made from steel. I'm sure some particles fly off as iron (or iron-oxide/rust), but surely much less than rubber given how much stronger steel wheels / steel tracks are.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#27

Post by Synaesthesia »

audunw wrote: post #7

It’s great to bring this problem up. But the focus on EVs is a distraction. > EVs tend to shed around 20 percent more from their tires due to their higher weight and high torque compared to traditional internal combustion engine-powered vehicles. It’s covered in this panel discussion on Fully Charged: https://youtu.be/LeHakmL6eEc?si=ebBAn8RSDhmmLfHI Fleet operators don’t see any significant difference in tire wear. E…

The important point is there are far greener alternatives than EV's. EV's cost a lot of resources to build, which means a lot of environmental destruction and carbon output. Plus as we see they still contribute to this tyre dust problem. They are not the holy grail. Rail, public transport, e-bikes and better city design is.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#28

Post by kylebenzle »

blackoil wrote: post #19
kylebenzle wrote: post #15

I worked on a phd for 4 years looking into this problem indirectly and for a decade at Ohio State they have had working solutions to the tire dust issue but it is IMPOSSIBLE to get funding. A Billion dollar industry and NO ONE cares about cleaning it up if it means increasing costs by 5% or more. It has been WELL KNOWN for 50 years! We are basically aerosolizing carbon in MASSIVE amounts right where we live and work.…

Would it be still cheaper if all tires are made from natural rubber. We shouldn't have old forests destroyed for rubber plantations.

There are two main working solutions that have ALREADY been used and proven to work since WWII.

First: a fungal disease has wiped out ALL the rubber trees in south america, thats why we cant grow in it the Western hemisphere, a fungus. If we could grow it here we would and it would drop the price by A LOT. But, we already have a solution, a transgenic species that is resistant, nonsense Government regulation and moronic "public opinion" is the only thing stopping this from fixing the rubber problem overnight.

Second: sounds funny, but ever break a dandelion stem in half and see the white stuff come out? That latex, PURE high quality latex. Let that latex air dry and you rubber! No refinement necessary. During WWII they supplied most of the war effort with rubber from dandelions! Yes, it works, its not efficient but progress has been made and with ANY funding at all it could easily produce enough higher quality natural rubber for ALL our need and enough to export.

The ONLY problem is that companies make too much money producing low quality "disposable" tires that they will NEVER switch.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6073688/ [2] https://hcs.osu.edu/our-people/dr-katrina-cornish

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#29

Post by cscurmudgeon »

kylebenzle wrote: post #17
modeless wrote: post #2

I'm glad people are looking at how to reduce the impact of tire dust. I expect we can make big improvements because it's not something we've optimized for yet. Not mentioned in the article is that EVs also dramatically reduce brake dust because the brakes are hardly used compared to an ICE car.

I worked on this indirectly for 4 as as part of a pdh at Ohio State. We have had the solution to this problem since then but because natural rubber is slightly less profitable for the companies (it lasts too long and it too high quality) they use synthetic rubber. Tire dust is a problem becuase we WANT it to be a problem the solution is available but it is impossible to get funding because the tire companies don't wa…

> Thats it, that is how capitalism works

But we don't live in a pure capitalistic society.

Where is the govt's role in this? We pay 30-40% of our earnings for govt to do nothing while politicians become rich enabling this?

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#30

Post by traveler01 »

kylebenzle wrote: post #21
chmod600 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chemically speaking, how is natural rubber different from plastic while still having such similar properties?

Great question! Its super simple, it is ONLY the length of the hydrocarbon chain, a better quality natural rubber has really long chains (10,000+ atoms long) that last a LONG time and are VERY stretchy. Synthetic rubber (or plastic) is shorter (1,000 atoms long) and doesn't last as long. Thats it, it is the exact same "product" just a chain that gets longer and longer and changes its physical properties as it grows.

Noob here, but aren’t the best tires made from natural rubber? Or am I mistaken?
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