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Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

theguardian.com

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Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#161

Post by adolph »

RajT88 wrote: post #73
adolph wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Poor neighborhoods are policed far more heavily than wealthier neighborhoods. I see this sentiment often. If this were true it would represent a criminal opportunity to victimize "wealthier neighborhoods." As far as I can tell: that does not seem to be the case very often; and victimization rates are higher in "poor neighborhoods." I can see the logic of an argument that excessive legal criminalization induces cycl…

Police already have discretion to enforce the law on whomever, and however they wish. It is inappropriate to try and shift blame entirely to lawmakers, when (obviously) the police have culpability here because of the choices they make regarding the enforcement of those laws. That's why the sentiment is so common. Obviously. Come on.

I still don't get it--not being obtuse, it isn't obvious to me. Is the claim that differences in policing are due to discretion in law enforcement and not because victimization rates are different in neighborhoods of different socio-economic statuses?

Discretion in enforcement is either lawful or not. If discretion is the key problem and lawmakers do not address it, then yes, the responsibility is on lawmakers and ultimately on voters.

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#162

Post by tempaway22641 »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #102
tempaway22641 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont think anyones advocating going that far edit: I would advocate for a sensible area somewhere between the two ludicrous extremes of 'everyone just look out for themselves' and 'collars that monitor every moment of their lives' based on general consensus arrived at via public discussion and democracy.

> I dont think anyones advocating going that far Not yet. > edit: I would advocate for a sensible area somewhere between the two ludicrous extremes That sensible conclusion is "you can't save everyone". If you try, you inevitably become the tyrant we must be saved from. To save everyone, you require omniscience and omnipotence. You must know everything about your subjects and have the power to act on that knowledge.…

That sensible conclusion is "you can't save everyone"

I never said you could.

It must be hard for you to get around with all these slippery slopes you keep seeing everywhere

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#163

Post by SoftTalker »

fnordpiglet wrote: post #147
SoftTalker wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they could just use paper and books and avoid the whole morass. There is zero need to be using "devices" in schools at least until High School, and I'd question even then.

Except they can’t control the fact that wealthier kids will have access to devices that give them Wikipedia and ChatGPT and other online knowledge sources. Being able to tell ChatGPT “explain to me the Byzantine empires history” then interrogate it on fine points to prep to write an essay in immeasurably more powerful than “here’s a middle school textbook good luck understanding the nuances.” This puts the kids witho…

Wealthier kids have always had and always will have advantages like that. Wealthier kids probably also have their own room and a quiet organized place to do homework. They've probably been encouraged to read and been provided with books and other enrichment opportunities. I think most teachers know who these kids are and and know if they are turning in their own work or not.

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#164

Post by ben_w »

badcppdev wrote: post #31
ben_w wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.bristol.gov.uk/residents/social-care-and-health/... They're not keeping it secret. It's the same sort of thing as all the EULAs/T&Cs we have to click agree to: much too boring to pay attention to, unless it's a headline. That said: > How long we will keep your personal information? > We will hold this information for as long as it is needed, or if we are required to do so by law. In practice this means th…

You need to read up on your torts. Injury or harm done to a young person can result in a claim for compensation later in life. That's why paediatric insurance is so complicated.

"We will keep a record of who you and your family hung out with and what your financial situation was when you were 15 years old, until you are 90, just in case you (or presumably your great-grandchildren) want to sue the estate of someone that statistically will have pre-deceased you by 34 years"?

It may be how UK tort law works, making it legally justifiable (or even legally mandatory), but the duration is still definitely stupid and wrong.

Well, "stupid and wrong" unless this is one of those things where you need to be a lawyer in the first place to understand all the moving parts that make no sense otherwise; but that's how bad it looks from here.

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#165

Post by fnordpiglet »

SoftTalker wrote: post #163
fnordpiglet wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except they can’t control the fact that wealthier kids will have access to devices that give them Wikipedia and ChatGPT and other online knowledge sources. Being able to tell ChatGPT “explain to me the Byzantine empires history” then interrogate it on fine points to prep to write an essay in immeasurably more powerful than “here’s a middle school textbook good luck understanding the nuances.” This puts the kids witho…

Wealthier kids have always had and always will have advantages like that. Wealthier kids probably also have their own room and a quiet organized place to do homework. They've probably been encouraged to read and been provided with books and other enrichment opportunities. I think most teachers know who these kids are and and know if they are turning in their own work or not.

I’m not talking about ChatGPT writing an essay for you. ChatGPT is also a pretty good teacher in itself, and can help you learn many topics and subjects by providing direct access to a tutor on most topics. Wikipedia is the only encyclopedia available, more or less.

While schools can’t give you a good family or a nice house to study in, they certainly can give you an iPad.

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#166

Post by lawlessone »

kwhitefoot wrote: post #109
limbicsystem wrote: post #88

Can we also have a discussion about the 'normal' behaviour monitoring tools like Classcharts that are used by pretty much every school in the UK? These collect fine-grained data about behaviour throughout the day and link it both to the child but also the people that are near that child. It operates all across the child's school career. I've tried to opt my kids out of this but it's really hard. At best I think they…

I'm so glad I don't have children in school in the UK. There seems to be so much going on that has nothing to do with education. I'm glad that when I was at school in the sixties and seventies in the UK none of that existed and teachers pretty much just taught. How did this sort of thing creep into schools without anyone protesting?

>How did this sort of thing creep into schools without anyone protesting?

Apathy as others have mentioned. Apathy because people are tired. And maybe apathy because it's clearly being aimed at people for class and/or ethnicity. People tolerate a lot of bad if doesn't affect them in particular.

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#167

Post by RajT88 »

adolph wrote: post #161
RajT88 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police already have discretion to enforce the law on whomever, and however they wish. It is inappropriate to try and shift blame entirely to lawmakers, when (obviously) the police have culpability here because of the choices they make regarding the enforcement of those laws. That's why the sentiment is so common. Obviously. Come on.

I still don't get it--not being obtuse, it isn't obvious to me. Is the claim that differences in policing are due to discretion in law enforcement and not because victimization rates are different in neighborhoods of different socio-economic statuses? Discretion in enforcement is either lawful or not. If discretion is the key problem and lawmakers do not address it, then yes, the responsibility is on lawmakers and ul…

Discretion is not the key problem. Discretion is a necessary part of the job.

Let me address victimization rates - because yes, they are higher in poorer communities. That does not justify in any way the behavior of police in those communities, which is to randomly pull over/stop and search/etc. people on the street who "look" like bad guys. If somebody kills someone, sure, arrest them and put them in prison. Most "bad guys" sent to prison are not violent offenders (drugs, theft, homelessness, child support, etc.) with drug possession being a huge chunk of it.

https://www.americanactionforum.org/research/incarceration-a...

The culture of policing is the key problem, which is created by a confluence of training, recruiting practices, general societal attitudes, and the political leadership of elected officials. It's not one problem, as you can see - it's many contributing factors.

A local town near me was praised some years back for drastically reducing violence by shifting towards community-based outreach policing. The local news actually called out Chicago for not following its example, you should definitely read about it:

https://www.aurora-il.org/1637/Community-Oriented-Policing-C...

Critics of community oriented policing typically view it as "being soft on crime" instead of a systems problem. The "put bad guys in prison" model has the effect of continuing the cycle of poverty, and measures such as mostly doing away with pre-trial detention (i.e. bond) for non-violent offenders are intended as a systemic fix for the poverty cycle.

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#168

Post by lupire »

bmsleight_ wrote: post #154
pera wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The council provides a data flow diagram showing the source of the data: https://www.bristol.gov.uk/files/documents/5972-insight-bris...

Bloody hell - until I looked at the digram, I did no realise - this is pure profiling. What has benefit data got to do with a child at risk. As per Housing - this is profile of people because they live on the 'wrong' estate. "Accessing Out of Work benefits" is saying the child may be at risk. "Teenage Parent" is used as an indicator.

Yeah, that's the point. It's identifying people who need help.

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#169

Post by lupire »

DRW_ wrote: post #142
SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US there is a summer lunch program at participating schools. And kid any day can come get a free lunch, they just pick it up. Makes sure that kids get food in the summer. So… why delivery and why a list?

Yes, all kids will be able to make it back to the school easily...

In the US the school bus drops off food at the bus stops.

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#170

Post by matheusmoreira »

tempaway22641 wrote: post #162
matheusmoreira wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I dont think anyones advocating going that far Not yet. > edit: I would advocate for a sensible area somewhere between the two ludicrous extremes That sensible conclusion is "you can't save everyone". If you try, you inevitably become the tyrant we must be saved from. To save everyone, you require omniscience and omnipotence. You must know everything about your subjects and have the power to act on that knowledge.…

That sensible conclusion is "you can't save everyone" I never said you could. It must be hard for you to get around with all these slippery slopes you keep seeing everywhere

Didn't you?

> in the UK the status quo is that it is the job of the state to look after vulnerable children/people

You literally said it's the state's job to "look after" all those people.

So how far are you willing to go to save them? How much are you willing to sacrifice? Once you inevitably fail because of the limits of the system, will you respect those limits? Or will you sacrifice everyone's freedom and humanity to lift them?

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