Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families • Hacker News Board

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#81

Post by SV_BubbleTime » Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 3:36 PM UTC

notahacker wrote: post #52

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Gather together a big pile of food and let the kids know where it is with instructions to only take what they need for the next couple of days or so. Why go to the bother of sending the food out, when the kids are already there. Also, the parents/carers may feel insulted if they are thought to be receiving "charity", so it'd be a better idea to allow the kids to obtain extra food without involving the rest of th…

The kids aren't already there during the summer . As the GP pointed out.

In the US there is a summer lunch program at participating schools. And kid any day can come get a free lunch, they just pick it up. Makes sure that kids get food in the summer.

So… why delivery and why a list?

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#82

Post by notahacker » Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 3:36 PM UTC

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #64

notahacker wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the safeguarding lead at a school is a predatory teacher looking for grooming targets, the existence of databases is the least of kids' problems. Particularly if the database is mainly flagging up kids that might already be at risk of abuse. Predatory individuals who are not safeguarding leads benefit much more from people campaigning to silo any records that suggest/confirm they might be a threat.

Unfortunately, child predators are likely to get themselves into as strong a position of trust as possible - coaches, church leaders etc, so I would expect them to attempt to become a safeguarding lead. They could then also use the data to explain why they were taking certain kids into one-on-one sessions.

I do feel like I'm conversing with an LLM that has never attended a school but is tuned to contradict me regardless here!

Senior leaders at schools don't need "data" to justify talking one on one to students or to figure out which students seem vulnerable.

On the other hand, data is useful for people with actual welfare concerns about a child in establishing if there might be some underlying reason behind the child's weird behaviour or expressed fear of going home or visible bruising that's "just an accident". Ensuring nobody can share threats data is a massive net boon to people that harm kids.

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#83

Post by tempaway22641 » Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 3:38 PM UTC

ncr100 wrote: post #6

Ylpertnodi wrote: post #3

"The force said “robust privacy and sharing agreements” had been approved by the Information Commissioner’s Office and development of the system done in collaboration with the Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation." ...but not the parents.

Are these government institutions in Bristol? If so do they have public blogs or other citizen friendly mechanics for sharing important decisions?

Yep here's a UK gov report about the data sharing that makes the app possible

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#84

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 3:39 PM UTC

matheusmoreira wrote: post #78

tempaway22641 wrote: post #60

Lots of people here not really understanding how this works in the UK. A few times there's been a big media stories in the UK about a child who got badly abused or killed in domestic situations and then afterwards it turns out that various people (social services, teachers, charities etc) had concerns about the child's safety but concerns weren't written down or joined together and so the child could have been saved/…

So many tragedies happen daily because of human imperfections and limitations. If we develop and put a monitoring collar on the neck of every human being from the day they wre born, we could save so many of them. How far are you willing to go?

[deleted]

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#85

Post by ndsipa_pomu » Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 3:39 PM UTC

tempaway22641 wrote: post #77

karaterobot wrote: post #65

I guess main the problem is the secrecy. Even the article is unable to say exactly what information the app has, and who has access to it—they mention safeguarding leads being the users, but then talk about how "schools" get notified when a student has an encounter with the police. Does this information get sent only to qualified professionals with clear accountability, or does it get sent to a shared email address t…

There's no secrecy about it, the app, who has access to it and why is explained here: https://www.bristol.gov.uk/residents/social-care-and-health/...

...with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard"

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#86

Post by tempaway22641 » Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 3:40 PM UTC

matheusmoreira wrote: post #78

tempaway22641 wrote: post #60

Lots of people here not really understanding how this works in the UK. A few times there's been a big media stories in the UK about a child who got badly abused or killed in domestic situations and then afterwards it turns out that various people (social services, teachers, charities etc) had concerns about the child's safety but concerns weren't written down or joined together and so the child could have been saved/…

So many tragedies happen daily because of human imperfections and limitations. If we develop and put a monitoring collar on the neck of every human being from the day they wre born, we could save so many of them. How far are you willing to go?

I dont think anyones advocating going that far

edit: I would advocate for a sensible area somewhere between the two ludicrous extremes of 'everyone just look out for themselves' and 'collars that monitor every moment of their lives' based on general consensus arrived at via public discussion and democracy.

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#87

Post by tempaway22641 » Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 3:40 PM UTC

rob137 wrote: post #76

tempaway22641 wrote: post #60

Lots of people here not really understanding how this works in the UK. A few times there's been a big media stories in the UK about a child who got badly abused or killed in domestic situations and then afterwards it turns out that various people (social services, teachers, charities etc) had concerns about the child's safety but concerns weren't written down or joined together and so the child could have been saved/…

I'll just throw in that I volunteer for an organisation that often deals with children, and in many ways safeguarding has been a disaster. I can totally see how good intentions following the 'Baby P'* case led to laws like this. But the reaction from many organisations has been to completely reorient themselves, and at all costs. This is quite natural given that ultimately the law poses the greatest threat to the lea…

Yes I've seen the same thing. As you say, lots of orgs have had to reorient themselves around the safeguarding process

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#88

Post by limbicsystem » Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 3:41 PM UTC

Can we also have a discussion about the 'normal' behaviour monitoring tools like Classcharts that are used by pretty much every school in the UK? These collect fine-grained data about behaviour throughout the day and link it both to the child but also the people that are near that child. It operates all across the child's school career. I've tried to opt my kids out of this but it's really hard. At best I think they have stopped logging their behaviour but they are still in the data as a 'network' influence. Classcharts used to boast about how their AI could do behavioural profiling but that looked too creepy so now they just talk about how teachers can use the data for seating planning. I'm pretty sure that I could use the data to profile a child pretty effectively even after they have left school. God only knows what happens to the data or how it is secured - the school literally don't care and think I'm crazy for even asking.

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#89

Post by robertlagrant » Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 3:41 PM UTC

throwaway71271 wrote: post #22

robertlagrant wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, consider the power itself, not the category the power belongs to. If a school knows 2 extra things about you (on benefits; father in jail for child abuse), that's not the same as 24x7 video surveillance. Risk assess the reality, not the overarching category.

Why dont we just take all the children? Let the state raise them. Father was in jail, he should never see his children ever again. Mother was drunk, take the kids and lets sterlize the parents just in case. I am making an extreme argument, there is obviously a line for CPS, but you have to remember that every system in the modern society is trying to be total. The police wants to stop crime, at all cost, if they coul…

> you have to remember that every system in the modern society is trying to be total

No, it's not. A school wanting to know a few things about a child is not "trying to be total". I get the extreme view; it can be warranted, but again, the worst case is not the average case, and we should just analyse the current case on its own merits.

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#90

Post by ndsipa_pomu » Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 3:41 PM UTC

notahacker wrote: post #70

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither are the teachers. This is why having the teachers act as a social security service is a poor idea.

This may shock you, but the teachers aren't the ones delivering the food! Nevertheless, the organisation of services to provide free food to selected kids at home and at school requires a database to record which kids . Such a database is also accessible to schools for obvious reasons. If you have the very HN-y opinion that being on a database is so bad it would be better if the kids stayed hungry that's fine, but pl…

> If you have the very HN-y opinion that being on a database is so bad it would be better if the kids stayed hungry that's fine, but please at least make a token attempt to understand a system before dismissing it.

Quite the opposite - my view is that if someone is hungry, then they should be provided food as a basic function of human society. To be honest, I've never heard of this food delivery system from UK schools and I thought that the issue was mainly handled (poorly in my view) by having Food Banks for starving families.

Can you point me to some information on this UK scheme please?