Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families • Hacker News Board

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#41

Post by ndsipa_pomu » Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 2:35 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #21

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #5

Why would they keep it secret from the families and children unless it's doing something nefarious?

https://www.bristol.gov.uk/residents/social-care-and-health/... They're not keeping it secret. It's the same sort of thing as all the EULAs/T&Cs we have to click agree to: much too boring to pay attention to, unless it's a headline. That said: > How long we will keep your personal information? > We will hold this information for as long as it is needed, or if we are required to do so by law. In practice this means th…

Just putting an information page up on the council's website isn't very useful unless the children and families know about the system and know to go looking for it. "The plans were on display..." etc.

From TFA:

> School safeguarding leads told Fair Trials that they kept the system secret from children and their families. One said: “They [parents and carers] wouldn’t know about this ... parents will have no kind of sight of it at all ... They just don’t know of its existence.”

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#42

Post by pera » Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 2:36 PM UTC

ballenf wrote: post #17

merpnderp wrote: post #4

The title made it sound like the schools were installing malware on students' devices, but as far as I can tell this is just a central database bringing together data from different government agencies. I'm not sure I see the problem with schools getting an update that a kid was arrested by police or that their family is on food aid or something. Schools in my area need to know which kids are living in poverty becaus…

Maybe the real problem is that there exists a system design to allow querying a person's family connections to police interactions. This isn't even just convictions, but basically any accusations or investigations. The wording is kind of vague, but I think this framing is supported by the article. The existence of such a system just seems dystopian. Seems entirely reasonable that issues of domestic violence should be…

The council provides a data flow diagram showing the source of the data:

https://www.bristol.gov.uk/files/documents/5972-insight-bris...

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#43

Post by ndsipa_pomu » Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 2:36 PM UTC

jjgreen wrote: post #11

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we've done nothing wrong, then why are they looking... By the way, can you send me your bank and credit card details so that I can just verify that you've done nothing wrong?

Sigh. I was agreeing with you, referring to Bristol Council who run the scheme, turning their own propaganda against them.

Sorry, I was expanding on the sentiment, not disagreeing with you.

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#44

Post by notahacker » Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 2:38 PM UTC

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #33

IggleSniggle wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all parents will respond, and of those that do, not all parents respond honestly. But the child still needs to be fed, whether the parent thinks they need to be fed or not.

It shouldn't be the responsibility of teachers or the school to provide food, but if there's a real need, then why don't they offer the food to those that want it and just cut out the secret database crap?

You're going to need some sort of database to record who wants the food sending to them...

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#45

Post by lolinder » Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 2:39 PM UTC

merpnderp wrote: post #4

The title made it sound like the schools were installing malware on students' devices, but as far as I can tell this is just a central database bringing together data from different government agencies. I'm not sure I see the problem with schools getting an update that a kid was arrested by police or that their family is on food aid or something. Schools in my area need to know which kids are living in poverty becaus…

> just a central database bringing together data from different government agencies

I realize this is a US perspective, but this actually sets off more alarm bells in my head than a school overreaching by installing spyware. The latter can be addressed by direct parental action pretty easily. Government agencies systematically sharing data is a lot harder to solve and if anything is more dangerous.

Just because a family gets welfare aid from one agency doesn't automatically mean that they want their kid's school to know about it. Maybe they got enough and want their child to not have to feel different from the other kids by getting special treatment at school. Why not just let the family self-report their need to the school?

More alarming is the idea of reporting interactions with police. A conviction is one thing, but an arrest could very easily be a mistake, and propagating that information explicitly in the name of child protection is a recipe for turning that mistake into a tragedy when a school overreacts.

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#46

Post by candiodari » Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 2:45 PM UTC

ballenf wrote: post #17

merpnderp wrote: post #4

The title made it sound like the schools were installing malware on students' devices, but as far as I can tell this is just a central database bringing together data from different government agencies. I'm not sure I see the problem with schools getting an update that a kid was arrested by police or that their family is on food aid or something. Schools in my area need to know which kids are living in poverty becaus…

Maybe the real problem is that there exists a system design to allow querying a person's family connections to police interactions. This isn't even just convictions, but basically any accusations or investigations. The wording is kind of vague, but I think this framing is supported by the article. The existence of such a system just seems dystopian. Seems entirely reasonable that issues of domestic violence should be…

[flagged]

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#47

Post by ndsipa_pomu » Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 2:46 PM UTC

notahacker wrote: post #44

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It shouldn't be the responsibility of teachers or the school to provide food, but if there's a real need, then why don't they offer the food to those that want it and just cut out the secret database crap?

You're going to need some sort of database to record who wants the food sending to them...

Why?

Gather together a big pile of food and let the kids know where it is with instructions to only take what they need for the next couple of days or so. Why go to the bother of sending the food out, when the kids are already there. Also, the parents/carers may feel insulted if they are thought to be receiving "charity", so it'd be a better idea to allow the kids to obtain extra food without involving the rest of the family.

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#48

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 2:46 PM UTC

pera wrote: post #42

ballenf wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the real problem is that there exists a system design to allow querying a person's family connections to police interactions. This isn't even just convictions, but basically any accusations or investigations. The wording is kind of vague, but I think this framing is supported by the article. The existence of such a system just seems dystopian. Seems entirely reasonable that issues of domestic violence should be…

The council provides a data flow diagram showing the source of the data: https://www.bristol.gov.uk/files/documents/5972-insight-bris...

[deleted]

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#49

Post by candiodari » Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 2:50 PM UTC

lolinder wrote: post #45

merpnderp wrote: post #4

The title made it sound like the schools were installing malware on students' devices, but as far as I can tell this is just a central database bringing together data from different government agencies. I'm not sure I see the problem with schools getting an update that a kid was arrested by police or that their family is on food aid or something. Schools in my area need to know which kids are living in poverty becaus…

> just a central database bringing together data from different government agencies I realize this is a US perspective, but this actually sets off more alarm bells in my head than a school overreaching by installing spyware. The latter can be addressed by direct parental action pretty easily. Government agencies systematically sharing data is a lot harder to solve and if anything is more dangerous. Just because a fam…

But social care agencies have a serious problem. They don't take good care of kids, which leads to them having a very bad reputation, which leads to child abuse (and many other crimes) not getting reported. Why? Simple: kids are treated far worse "in the system" than at home, even in abuse situations.

But if CPS doesn't get kids reported, they don't get money.

They don't want to fix this by taking better care of kids (“generational squeeze” on public finances, as the article puts it), so they must find other solutions. And the solutions they're going with are simple: get everyone to report everything on kids, in a format that can be easily used in court.

In 6 months, expect a message that a teacher got beaten up for, probably unknowingly, causing a kid to be forcibly placed into "care".

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#50

Post by ndsipa_pomu » Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 2:53 PM UTC

swayvil wrote: post #36

We call it "right to privacy". But what if we call it "right to hide" or "right to lie" or "right to censor"? That certainly puts a different light on it. Universal 24-7 communication about absolutely everything would be a very very good thing. Take our whole society up a level. Except that we have these big predators lurking about. So the problem isn't the privacy, it's the predators. Right?

I think you've got it back-to-front.

Personal identifying information does not belong to any company that gathers or purchases it unless they have specific permission (i.e. not some dark pattern "click here to disable the non-collection of your data") from the person and it is reasonable for them to have that data for their stated purpose. (Somewhat paraphrased from GDPR). The company and or government department need to have a strong reason to be manipulating the family's data and the family should have the right to see the data that is being held on them and also correct or delete it if it is incorrect.