281–290 of 380 posts
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What mechanism is there to impact unethical work laid across your back? You walk away so someone in more of a desperate situation will do the work instead?
There's no mechanism that ensures that no one does things you consider unethical. What an idea!
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> have also perpetuated racism, sexism, xenophobia, organized crime, government corruption, The same is true for political parties, religious organizations, and all sorts of other organizations that are made of people, including privately owned companies. Which of these concepts would you like to abandon, and what do you propose should be their replacement? What you say is an argument for balancing power, not for con…
Unions are forced participation. I am not forced to participate in political parties or religious organizations. In theory a Union could be purely voluntary in which case cool. I'll opt out. But then the Union loses most of it's leverage so it in practice if a Union gets introduced it's no longer voluntary it's forced for anyone who works at that company. The only choice for someone who doesn't want to contribute to…
Not sure how it works in the US, but from what I read you can't be forced to join a union there. But I think I get what you mean: once you work in a given place, there's usually not much choice which union you can join (or which will represent you in any case), and your only option is to change employer, location or career.
I understand that point of view, but I don't think it's a good argument. Employers also organize and wield their influence in ways that you seem to resent in unions. Don't like it? You have the same choices as above. (I don't think people should be forced into unions; I just think your argument is not anti-union, or at least cannot be fairly applied to single them out.)
The difference seems to be that the employer pays you and treats you well enough that you think you won't benefit from a union. Good for you! Hope it stays that way.
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> I have my pick of jobs if I feel undervalued by the place I work Definitely something that is in no danger of changing at any point in the future! What a relief for all of us! We already have ample evidence that tech giants colluded to depress the salaries of their workers. I can understand being wary of unions but to suggest they’d provide absolutely nothing feels like a failure of imagination.
Software engineer is not the only job I've every had. I've been the janitor sweeping floors, I've been the guy on the assembly line. I've literally supported my family by working day labor with no certainty of continued employment. I have always been able to find a place and prove myself worthy of the pay without sacrificing my health, or family time. I've quit jobs when I no longer felt like it was the right place f…
Yes it is.
It's important to look for the privileges you were born into that allowed you to get to where you are now. Because not everyone starts at the same starting line. It's great that you have such a strong work ethic and are so self reliant but life comes at you fast, and sometimes you need some outside help. Illness, accidents, family emergencies, wildfires/tornadoes/hurricanes/earthquakes/etc; those things happen and you need help, whether its from the government or from your employer or your church or church-equivalent.
It's great that you've got such a good relationship with your employer. But there are others that don't have that same relationship, and are being exploited and are being treated unfairly by their employer. Thanks to the US' H1-B system, they may not have the luxury of quitting under those circumstances like you do.
Not everyone has access to the same community support structure as you do. It's great that you have one! But for those that don't, their workplace can be a lifeline.
Look at the bigger picture. If your boss was assaulting a co-worker with his fists, what would you do? Yell at your co-worker and tell them to have more self-respect? Why, when it's financial or cultural instead shouldn't you stand up for them as well?
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I don't get to pick unions. I get to pick my community support structures. Who I marry, which church,friend group,local community group I join? Those are all voluntary. Unions are not voluntary so they can't really be a community support group in the sense I mean.
>I don't get to pick unions. >Unions are not voluntary Not all of my colleagues are in a union, and some of those that are are in a different union to me (albeit a minority of them). It works.
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> Note that all professional sports have unions for athletes. Except tennis, where players are basically independent contractors—and not coïncidentally they have the lowest average earnings of any major sport: * https://www.vox.com/videos/2023/9/12/23870760/tennis-wages-s...
I would not expect a union for tennis players. Why would they even have an employer? They play by themselves, for themselves. I have never heard of a tennis player “owner”, other than obviously the tennis player themself. And the coincidence that they earn less might have something to do with how nobody can name anyone outside of the top handful of players.
The same can be said of actors, and yet they have a union/guild.
> And the coincidence that they earn less might have something to do with how nobody can name anyone outside of the top handful of players.
Few can name most of the benchwarmers in the NBA/NFL/etc, and yet they have a minimum salary: NHL is $775K, NFL is $800K.
Carlos Alcaraz is the top player and made US$ 10M (gross, not net) in 2022: he would be the 147th top-paid athlete in the NBA, 202nd in the NFL, 126th in the MLB.
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What makes you feel that a union wouldn’t represent your interests? Do you really believe that corporations will continue paying us well any longer than they absolutely have to? As soon as an ai or low code split comes along that can replace junior and mid level engineers, those jobs will get harder and harder to find. The rest of us will have to shoulder the responsibility of “cleaning” after those solutions and the…
Union's do much more than just negotiate things with your employer. They lobby elected representatives. They donate money to political groups or candidates for office. I have more dimensions to me than just what I do for a job. The collective aggregate desires of all my coworkers is likely to diverge from me in areas that I care deeply about. I don't need a situation where I am "forced" to support those things with m…
I don't know whether we deserve a union or not. I do know that I emphatically do not want or need one. I make the amount of money I need. I have my pick of jobs if I feel undervalued by the place I work. Under no circumstances do I want to be forced to pay dues into a union that is unlikely to represent me in the company or politically. Since I have no need or desire there is no reason for me to consider the question…
Also, labour unions are ammoral: https://www.richardhanania.com/p/why-labor-unions-are-evil
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Yes, software engineers are paid very well as a class. Google made $21b in income in Q2 of this year. That's more than $100,000 per employee. $400,000 in profit per employee per year. I'd sure like to get paid another 400 grand annually. Exploitation can also happen in ways other than pay. 24/7 oncall is unfortunately common in our industry, including oncall that is unpaid.
Why is 24/7 oncall exploitation? It is hardly unpaid when you are payed > $500,000 a year. Also you should know this upfront when accepting employment.
You take a job paying $X. Two years later, people decide that 24/7 oncall is necessary and suddenly now you are required to perform this 24/7 oncall. Your pay is not adjusted. You have no say in this new job requirement. This oncall is unpaid (your compensation hasn't changed).
>500,000 compensation is also highly unusual, even at very well paying companies.
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From what you described it sounds very, very similar to my experience with unions in Brazil. The ones for IT specifically, they all suck and that system is definitely not how unions should work... For some reason I always felt those IT unions in Brazil were not actually run by any worker but by cadres from the employers. On the other hand, unions here in Sweden are definitely worth being part of, they have your back…
I might be misinformed here, but aren't unions part of the board for LLCs in Sweden? Or is it in Germany? (which, I mean, if you want limited liability, it's a good idea to have real oversight).
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Sure they do. But their agency doesn't eliminate yours. You can't control what your employer does. You can control what you do. So the correct thing is to exercise your own agency in response to theirs.
> You can't control what your employer does. That's precisely the point of unions, though. Individually, you have no control over your employer, but via collective bargaining you do.