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Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

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Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#191

Post by pjc50 »

zaphar wrote: post #174
afavour wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have my pick of jobs if I feel undervalued by the place I work Definitely something that is in no danger of changing at any point in the future! What a relief for all of us! We already have ample evidence that tech giants colluded to depress the salaries of their workers. I can understand being wary of unions but to suggest they’d provide absolutely nothing feels like a failure of imagination.

Software engineer is not the only job I've every had. I've been the janitor sweeping floors, I've been the guy on the assembly line. I've literally supported my family by working day labor with no certainty of continued employment. I have always been able to find a place and prove myself worthy of the pay without sacrificing my health, or family time. I've quit jobs when I no longer felt like it was the right place f…

> None of what I've done is out of reach for anyone else.

"Disabled workers do not exist"

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#192

Post by zaphar »

randy5235 wrote: post #145
zaphar wrote: post #107

I don't know whether we deserve a union or not. I do know that I emphatically do not want or need one. I make the amount of money I need. I have my pick of jobs if I feel undervalued by the place I work. Under no circumstances do I want to be forced to pay dues into a union that is unlikely to represent me in the company or politically. Since I have no need or desire there is no reason for me to consider the question…

What makes you feel that a union wouldn’t represent your interests? Do you really believe that corporations will continue paying us well any longer than they absolutely have to? As soon as an ai or low code split comes along that can replace junior and mid level engineers, those jobs will get harder and harder to find. The rest of us will have to shoulder the responsibility of “cleaning” after those solutions and the…

Union's do much more than just negotiate things with your employer. They lobby elected representatives. They donate money to political groups or candidates for office.

I have more dimensions to me than just what I do for a job. The collective aggregate desires of all my coworkers is likely to diverge from me in areas that I care deeply about. I don't need a situation where I am "forced" to support those things with my money and labor. I already have to do it with my taxes in some occasions. I don't need another one.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#193

Post by marcosdumay »

marcinzm wrote: post #51
ownagefool wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a decent take. But taking a view on markets outside of the US and SV/bigtech in particular, those 10x devs aren't usually getting the 2-3x as much, and taking a view of industry in total, profits are runaway but wages are flat and falling, especially when considering inflation. Capital is winning. Perhaps unions are required. But I'm not a union member and likely never will be.

>Capital is winning. When hasn't it won in the western world?

Whenever unions are strong.

(Was that a rhetorical question?)

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#194

Post by vasco »

lapcat wrote: post #184
zaphar wrote: post #107

I don't know whether we deserve a union or not. I do know that I emphatically do not want or need one. I make the amount of money I need. I have my pick of jobs if I feel undervalued by the place I work. Under no circumstances do I want to be forced to pay dues into a union that is unlikely to represent me in the company or politically. Since I have no need or desire there is no reason for me to consider the question…

> I make the amount of money I need. It's not just about money. Working conditions are equally important. Consider when companies demand that everyone RTO after promising permanent WFH. Consider when companies rescind offer letters after you've already quit your old job. Consider mass layoffs and severance. I think about how so many engineers need to take a long, unpaid break from work after leaving their jobs, becau…

How do unions help with those?

- Do unions enforce remote work?

- Do unions enforce an offer letter to turn into actual employment for someone who isn't even a member yet (they haven't signed anything)?

- Do unions make people have a better handle on their mental health and do companies with unions have lower rates of burnout in their workforces?

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#195

Post by jhgfjhgfjhfgjhg »

lapcat wrote: post #75
alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

> Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. No, thi…

UFC, NASCAR, golf, tennis, WWE don't have unions.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#196

Post by consz »

It’s absolutely incredible to me how much animosity unions have in the US and how self defeating the typical programmers attitude is (maybe this is just selection bias for HN?) — and I say this as someone who’s definitely not a laborer. But if I was one, I would hope I wouldn’t vote against my own class interests like it appears developers often do.

Luckily, even speaking openly against my own interests here is zero risk, I feel Americans are too far gone in their position against unions for it to ever be an issue for me personally.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#197

Post by nonethewiser »

itsoktocry wrote: post #34
alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

> The best engineers are worth literally 10x the worst engineers Uh, I'm pretty sure the best employees in any field are worth 10x what the worst employees are, whether you're writing code, assembling a car or gutting fish. The economics of labour suggest unions are most valuable where there's a monopsony buyer of labour. Big Tech might fit that bill, especially when we know they colluded to depress salaries.

> Uh, I'm pretty sure the best employees in any field are worth 10x what the worst employees are, whether you're writing code, assembling a car or gutting fish.

Or presumably anything else (because you said "any field"). But why?

It seems like the less skill or expertise something takes the less ability there is to deviate from the average. In which case unions, if most useful for low-skilled labor like OP described, are most useful for industries that tend to outsource their labor to other countries. And thus reduces the need for unions. Seems consistent with the decline of unions in the US.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#198

Post by Tade0 »

hospitalJail wrote: post #97

The Physicians have a cartel, Pharmacists have a cartel, why can't we create our own cartel? The only way this would work, is if we entrench ourselves into US politics and spend hundreds of millions of dollars of bribery/lobbying money. Sure its definitely going to be bad for the rest of US citizens, but if the medical field is going to extort us, why can't we join in?

This is more or less what's happened in my country, which is a popular outsourcing destination.

Contractors enjoy lower taxes and any attempt at ending these privileges failed, because otherwise the brain-drain that's going on would be much worse.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#199

Post by shortrounddev2 »

vasco wrote: post #194
lapcat wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I make the amount of money I need. It's not just about money. Working conditions are equally important. Consider when companies demand that everyone RTO after promising permanent WFH. Consider when companies rescind offer letters after you've already quit your old job. Consider mass layoffs and severance. I think about how so many engineers need to take a long, unpaid break from work after leaving their jobs, becau…

How do unions help with those? - Do unions enforce remote work? - Do unions enforce an offer letter to turn into actual employment for someone who isn't even a member yet (they haven't signed anything)? - Do unions make people have a better handle on their mental health and do companies with unions have lower rates of burnout in their workforces?

Unions are democratic organizations. If those things are important to you, you can speak up at a union meeting

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#200

Post by [deleted] »

baron816 wrote: post #153
dfxm12 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you already enjoy many benefits already brought about by unions that you did not pay dues for, like weekends off, ending child labor, 40 hr work week, 8 hr work day, benefits around health care, unemployment and more.

Unions have also perpetuated racism, sexism, xenophobia, organized crime, government corruption, etc. It’s not all sunshine and lollipops. America abandoned unions for a reason.

[deleted]
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