Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#271

Post by peteradio » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 2:18 PM UTC

slibhb wrote: post #220

lapcat wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I make the amount of money I need. It's not just about money. Working conditions are equally important. Consider when companies demand that everyone RTO after promising permanent WFH. Consider when companies rescind offer letters after you've already quit your old job. Consider mass layoffs and severance. I think about how so many engineers need to take a long, unpaid break from work after leaving their jobs, becau…

Great but for those of us who have better than adequate working conditions and enough money, please explain why we "deserve a union". Reading through this interview and thread, I notice how often this debate comes down to a sense of agency. You write about programmers being "burned out by their employer". But I would say that people experience burnout when they fail to set boundaries. Working to the point where your…

What mechanism is there to impact unethical work laid across your back? You walk away so someone in more of a desperate situation will do the work instead?

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#272

Post by anarticle » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 2:20 PM UTC

I would argue that in the US it will not work. An only acceptable model might be co-determination where workers have direct representation on the board. You can look across the board for barely functioning unions in the US, they are in some cases nearly adversarial with the people they are representing.

We must remember that any structure will require money to function, and I don't think paying a bunch of people who don't do what I do to "represent me" is for me. As people who are certainly making above average wages, we are now juicy targets for make-work organizers and griftlords who want to tell us how we should run our businesses and lives and to cut them in. The purpose of labor is scale, and in software we don't have the same overheads.

As for our industry, we are not very uniform in what we do and so it will be hard to define. This is very different to say, trades, or services that are well defined. Of course we want to think we are special so maybe it isn't true and I'm wrong. My guess is if you talked to five senior software engineers (to be explicit: someone who has been working for 10y) in software you'd have five different novels of war stories.

We are by far one of the highest paid and most coddled workers of all time. There is no kombucha on tap at the job site where you're laying bricks. (Marshalltown forever!)

Don't give me lines about "solidarity with workers" when you're the same people ordering doordash/instacart/grubhub. Those models ship money from your neighborhood and area directly into ultracapitalist hands.

No one strip mined you into a six figure job. I have belonged to several unions, most of which could not do anything for me contractually and yet I still paid a large amount of my then tiny checks because I was "part of the system". Not part enough to benefit. Maybe it's sour grapes on my part!

We must swim with the tides, and maybe the industry will change.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#273

Post by vasco » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 2:20 PM UTC

scottiebarnes wrote: post #228

vasco wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do unions help with those? - Do unions enforce remote work? - Do unions enforce an offer letter to turn into actual employment for someone who isn't even a member yet (they haven't signed anything)? - Do unions make people have a better handle on their mental health and do companies with unions have lower rates of burnout in their workforces?

Yeah actually a union can help with all of those things. That's why police are unionized, as well as most team sport elite athletes (players unions). And they like the power it gives them, which is why you never hear them talk badly about it.

I didn't ask If, I asked How, and I'd be surprised if you can find any examples.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#274

Post by lapcat » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 2:20 PM UTC

zaphar wrote: post #233

lapcat wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I make the amount of money I need. It's not just about money. Working conditions are equally important. Consider when companies demand that everyone RTO after promising permanent WFH. Consider when companies rescind offer letters after you've already quit your old job. Consider mass layoffs and severance. I think about how so many engineers need to take a long, unpaid break from work after leaving their jobs, becau…

Right now if I don't like the working conditions I leave for a place that has better conditions. I've never had to take a long unpaid break because I don't stick around long enough to burn out. I've done exactly this multiple times. I think most people could do this. I don't know why more of them don't. If they did working conditions would be across the board better. I don't think burnout is caused by companies most…

> I've never had to take a long unpaid break

The reader is expecting you to say, "because I only work for employeers with good working conditions", but...

> because I don't stick around long enough to burn out.

Well, ok, but how old are you, and do you believe that this strategy of musical chairs will continue to work for the rest of your life? It's a marathon, not a sprint.

> If they did working conditions would be across the board better.

Why do you think so? How exactly is that going to happen? What's the incentive to improve working conditions when employees just leave quickly, on purpose? Again, you didn't even claim that your new jobs have good working conditions.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#275

Post by dogleash » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 2:21 PM UTC

randy5235 wrote: post #145

zaphar wrote: post #107

I don't know whether we deserve a union or not. I do know that I emphatically do not want or need one. I make the amount of money I need. I have my pick of jobs if I feel undervalued by the place I work. Under no circumstances do I want to be forced to pay dues into a union that is unlikely to represent me in the company or politically. Since I have no need or desire there is no reason for me to consider the question…

What makes you feel that a union wouldn’t represent your interests? Do you really believe that corporations will continue paying us well any longer than they absolutely have to? As soon as an ai or low code split comes along that can replace junior and mid level engineers, those jobs will get harder and harder to find. The rest of us will have to shoulder the responsibility of “cleaning” after those solutions and the…

> What makes you feel that a union wouldn’t represent your interests?

They definitionally don't. Unions represent the union's interests. It is the design intent of unions to represent an amalgamation of their members. That's already not the same as my interests, but the union organization itself is also an incentivized actor.

These distinction are far from a subtlety.

My interests might overlap with the union's interest, but that's highly situational.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#276

Post by slibhb » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 2:25 PM UTC

peteradio wrote: post #271

slibhb wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great but for those of us who have better than adequate working conditions and enough money, please explain why we "deserve a union". Reading through this interview and thread, I notice how often this debate comes down to a sense of agency. You write about programmers being "burned out by their employer". But I would say that people experience burnout when they fail to set boundaries. Working to the point where your…

What mechanism is there to impact unethical work laid across your back? You walk away so someone in more of a desperate situation will do the work instead?

There's no mechanism that ensures that no one does things you consider unethical. What an idea!

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#277

Post by peteradio » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 2:26 PM UTC

lapcat wrote: post #263

afavour wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have my pick of jobs if I feel undervalued by the place I work Definitely something that is in no danger of changing at any point in the future! What a relief for all of us! We already have ample evidence that tech giants colluded to depress the salaries of their workers. I can understand being wary of unions but to suggest they’d provide absolutely nothing feels like a failure of imagination.

> We already have ample evidence that tech giants colluded to depress the salaries of their workers. For reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L... The irony here is that the tech companies are willing to organize into a kind of union in order to promote their interests, but the tech workers aren't.

> organize into a kind of union

That's one way to describe an illegal conspiracy

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#278

Post by lapcat » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 2:26 PM UTC

zaphar wrote: post #270

lapcat wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Working to the point where your mental health suffers is your fault: it's your responsbility to establish healthy boundaries or, failing at that, quit. It's interesting that the manager and/or employer has no apparent agency here.

Sure they do. But their agency doesn't eliminate yours. You can't control what your employer does. You can control what you do. So the correct thing is to exercise your own agency in response to theirs.

> You can't control what your employer does.

That's precisely the point of unions, though. Individually, you have no control over your employer, but via collective bargaining you do.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#279

Post by Jensson » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 2:28 PM UTC

fragmede wrote: post #254

shortrounddev2 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most states in the US you are not required to join the union if your workplace votes for it

For better or worse, closed shop (where a company hires only union members) was outlawed in the US by the Taft–Hartley Act in 1947.

That law has a loophole: Force the worker to pay the union even if they don't join it. So unless you live in a right to work state that law doesn't mean much.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#280

Post by sceptical » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 2:29 PM UTC

UncleMeat wrote: post #146

jandrewrogers wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in the US, the average software developer does eventually become a millionaire, working a pretty cushy job. If that is "exploitation" then most people would be like to be exploited like that.

Yes, software engineers are paid very well as a class. Google made $21b in income in Q2 of this year. That's more than $100,000 per employee. $400,000 in profit per employee per year. I'd sure like to get paid another 400 grand annually. Exploitation can also happen in ways other than pay. 24/7 oncall is unfortunately common in our industry, including oncall that is unpaid.

Why is 24/7 oncall exploitation? It is hardly unpaid when you are payed > $500,000 a year. Also you should know this upfront when accepting employment.