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‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

theguardian.com

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Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#231

Post by antisthenes »

koonsolo wrote: post #138
bell-cot wrote: post #6

Geezer* Perspective... [*If not in the USA, read "Old geezer". Credit: Aachen] Many varieties of "I really regret that I [did|didn't] do X when I was younger" occur in older humans. The stereotype of young men wanting to avoid all the work and commitment of setting down, marrying, and raising children is older than the pyramids. It is obviously not true of all young men, but there's very seldom been a shortage. Sure,…

As the title says, it's not about not wanting kids, it's about thinking it will happen automatically. Some guys think that relationships magically start in a romantic setting, like shown in Hollywood movies. Reality is: if you want something, you should actively purchase it. So if you don't want kids: fine, enjoy the freedoms it will offer. If you want a relationship and/or family, don't sit on your ass until it will…

The reality is that for an average guy, earning a stable long-term relationship in the Tinder era is an enormous amount of work, to the point that many find this challenge insurmountable (at least 5% more men, than women, as we can see from the article).

There are many men that I know that simply are consumed by the necessity to make ends meet that they barely have any time to go out and meet new people (women specifically).

Also, on top of that, women are far less approachable these days, which increases the effort even further.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#232

Post by antisthenes »

ninkendo wrote: post #60
bt4u wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will absolutely occur. Men who take their kids to the playground by themselves are often confronted (by moms of other kids). At some point things are so obvious that not many people are going to bother finding a peer reviewed study to cite. Maybe they should but they won't.

Everyone's experience is different, but my understanding (and experience) has always been the opposite: People see a dad taking his kid out to the playground and think "dad of the year" before they think of a pervert, because the bar for what it takes to be a good dad is so low. There are so many uninvolved dads out there that the smallest token gesture like taking your kids to the playground is seen as some huge acc…

It only takes 1 bad Karen to spoil the experience of many dads who love taking their kids to the playground.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#233

Post by antisthenes »

xyzelement wrote: post #197
bradlys wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up similarly and am also well off financially now too at 33. Yet, I can’t find a woman who would want to have kids with me. The market has changed. Looks is paramount - I worked so hard to be financially stable and didn’t realize that it wasn’t my parents financial situation that had fucked me over so badly in life - it was their dogshit genetics that made me ugly.

// Looks is paramount - I worked so hard to be financially stable and didn’t realize that it wasn’t my parents financial situation that had fucked me over so badly in life - it was their dogshit genetics that made me ugly. A guy with a job and a gym membership is more attractive than 90% of men by default. Do you really have a "looks problem" that wouldn't be resolved in 12 months by actively working out, eating well…

> Do you really have a "looks problem" that wouldn't be resolved in 12 months by actively working out, eating well, a good haircut and a great wardrobe?

A gym only takes you so far. There are things out of one's control - height, hair pattern, face shape, etc.

Although I do believe that you're right in the sense that not being overweight and having a stable job already places you in the top 10-15% of men. It's just that sometimes it's not enough and looks are pretty important for women (even though it's not often said out loud)

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#234

Post by antisthenes »

delineator wrote: post #31

Don't just assume... 1. Create bumble account 2. Filter for Age: > 35, Kids: "Want someday" 3. Swipe right

Surely you mean swipe left?

Age 35+ woman without kids is such a massive red flag, it might as well be Communist China invading.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#235

Post by antisthenes »

jokoon wrote: post #44

I'm 38, and I'm socially unable to meet women outside of online dating, I've had enough girlfriend and a long, 8 years relationship (she did not want kids). I don't really understand that social norm of having kids. I can understand sexual desire, but is there really a "desire to have kids"? Is having kids really some kind of moral imperative to "continue the human species"? Anyway, women have high standards, which i…

It's a complicated desire.

The desire for someone to carry on your skills, the desire to care for someone and to make them happy and to watch their joy.

And understanding that loving someone unconditionally makes you stronger.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#236

Post by skeaker »

atlantic wrote: post #130
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mixed feelings. On the one side, it feels like people stay "immature" for longer; instead of starting their careers in their teens and a family not long after, people stay in school until their mid-twenties. Then, what does it take to start a family? Stability. People need a stable income, a living wage, and a place they can call home. If people complain about birth rates, pay people a living wage when they enter the…

Not really. Starting a family is a leap in the dark. Always was, always will be. The only difference today is that people (may) have a lower risk tolerance, and a tendency to plan everything in advance. I had my first son with no house and no income. I just did the best I could, and things fell into place as I needed them.

Perhaps risk tolerance has remained the same, it's just that risk has gone high enough that it is outside of that risk tolerance. Taking on the task of raising a child when you can barely keep yourself fed is simply impossible from a risk assessment perspective. You are either not disclosing your full set of circumstances and they weren't as risky as you make them sound, or raised your child on the streets which most people would consider to be wildly irresponsible and bad for the child (I am assuming it is the former).

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#237

Post by bitcharmer »

corobo wrote: post #4
theGeatZhopa wrote: post #3

I can't have kids. So am I big sad. Congratulations to all fathers out there. Want to adopt some poor kid and give him/her a possibility to have a kind of a standard life and to help to open a door to the world :( But a single man adopting is considered as pervert. So I am even bigger sad.

> But a single man adopting is considered as pervert Is this evidence or assumption? Not challenging too hard just wondering if you've actually been called or treated like a perv or if it's something you assume will occur

Whenever I see a comment like that I always wonder how it's possible that someone might actually challenge what we all know well and experienced multiple times throughout our adult lives.

Trolling or genuine question from a person that never witnessed what everyone else did?

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#238

Post by balfirevic »

em-bee wrote: post #229
thefz wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> i think the smart thing to do is to have kids when you are 20 Please, read that sentence again.

it appears you are coming from an area/culture where this idea is ridiculous or unheard of. i can assure you i meant what i said. there is absolutely nothing wrong with having children at 20, or even earlier. however it requires a community and a society that is supportive of that. it works very well in china, because the culture there does support it. traditionally, the young couple lives together with the husbands…

> this way there is no problem with the young parents continuing their studies or working, because the household is managed by the grandparents

That doesn't bode well for the mentioned freedom and independence that you were going to get if you had children in your 20s.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#239

Post by deely3 »

em-bee wrote: post #214
deely3 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erm, no. Jobless, homeless student with few kids. I will be very very sorry for my kids.

are you saying you are a homeless student with kids right now? or are you giving an hypothetical example?

hypothethical. sorry if not clear

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#240

Post by anon291 »

jfax wrote: post #219
anon291 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Civil liberties have been restricted in past pandemics as well. Not universally throughout the country, no. There has been none. I can't take seriously anyone who claims the COVID response was anything other than unprecedented

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-pandemic-is...

There is nothing unprecedented about COVID. It is not the deadliest pandemic by any account. We simply had different attitudes toward civil liberties and the role of government in the past. The Spanish flu saw minimal national level policy and isolated (time and space) restrictions in particular places, along with sensible policies (like outdoor classrooms) meant to ameliorate the worst aspects. The sort of coercion during COVID was unprecedented. It is not something that we should accept.
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