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‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

theguardian.com

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Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#211

Post by em-bee »

mofosyne wrote: post #194
em-bee wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the expectation to need to be able to afford a house before you can have kids is something that is very wrong with society today. (but at the same time the difficulties today to afford a house is also something that has gone wrong. and i suppose the expectation to have a house made more sense when it was still possible to afford one. either way something here needs to change.)

Eh it's rational to expect stable housing before having kids. Even during medevial time, while you don't have much freedom, you have at least the certainty and stability of a place to live and a role to play. I don't think modern society does that anymore.

well, over here, renting is considered stable housing because we have sufficient protection for renters. i keep forgetting that this is not the case everywhere.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#212

Post by dwaltrip »

bradlys wrote: post #186
WXLCKNO wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up poor and financial anxiety was real, I just couldn't fathom how people were living with it. I could barely tolerate it for myself, let alone bring kids into the world while being uncertain. It didn't feel like anything condescending, just a lack of understanding. Now I'm very well off and could retire (fat fire equivalent) at 34 and I do want kids.

I grew up similarly and am also well off financially now too at 33. Yet, I can’t find a woman who would want to have kids with me. The market has changed. Looks is paramount - I worked so hard to be financially stable and didn’t realize that it wasn’t my parents financial situation that had fucked me over so badly in life - it was their dogshit genetics that made me ugly.

The way you carry yourself and the energy you give off matters more than your looks.

You sound bitter. That’s an unattractive trait. Your emotions are genuine and shouldn’t be ignored, but you need to process them in a healthy way, let go, and move on.

A good therapist is priceless for this. Easier said than done, though. It took me 4 attempts over a few years to find the right one.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#213

Post by [deleted] »

deely3 wrote: post #189
em-bee wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i think the smart thing to do is to have kids when you are 20 and then enjoy life when you are 40. at that time you are much better off financially (unless you live in a country where you have to pay for your kids education maybe) which gives you a lot more freedom to explore your interests.

Erm, no. Jobless, homeless student with few kids. I will be very very sorry for my kids.

[deleted]

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#214

Post by em-bee »

deely3 wrote: post #189
em-bee wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i think the smart thing to do is to have kids when you are 20 and then enjoy life when you are 40. at that time you are much better off financially (unless you live in a country where you have to pay for your kids education maybe) which gives you a lot more freedom to explore your interests.

Erm, no. Jobless, homeless student with few kids. I will be very very sorry for my kids.

are you saying you are a homeless student with kids right now? or are you giving an hypothetical example?

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#215

Post by anon291 »

alphabettsy wrote: post #204
anon291 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Impending global lockdown? You might be well served from a lot less time online and more time with your fellow humans or nature. Please stop trying to gaslight people. I too would have thought such a thing impossible in 2019/early 2020, but we saw that that is not beyond our leaders. Many people in the world have a lot of trauma from the government-imposed lockdowns and subsequent seizing of basic human freedoms. U…

Restrictions of civil liberties in times of crisis aren’t new, see nearly every war. There’s a very significant difference between “the coming global lockdown” and global lockdowns have happened and might happen again under the right circumstances. There is no gaslighting, a term massively overused and often wrongly, in questioning and pointing out the paranoia in the former statement. The person I was replying to se…

Based on HN's demographics, i'm guessing the poster is American.

In America, war (as defined by a loss in civil liberties) has not happened for over 80 years (true wars must be actually... declared by Congress). The various military engagements since then have not arisen to the same level of mobilization as an actual war.

Nevertheless, COVID was not a war, and the impositions were not made after a majority vote of Congress. They were just... imposed. That is sufficiently different. Claiming that COVID lockdowns were justified because similar reductions in civil liberties have happened in war, despite COVID sharing no characteristics with a war, is the epitome of gaslighting. A pandemic does not justify the mass removal of civil liberties. Honestly, when it's been done in war, it's always been seen as a necessary evil, whereas most lockdown supporters instead seem to view the lockdowns, as you seem to do, as an unalloyed good.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#216

Post by anon291 »

dagw wrote: post #183
anon291 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire phrase 'trying for kids' is a neologism only enabled by birth control For most of history, people just did what you did and had the results you did

Trying for kids means making sure you have sex at the right times of the month, something humanity has known about for millennia. Equally people not 'trying for kids' made sure to only have sex at the 'wrong' time of the month, again something humans have been doing for millennia.

Up until very recently, there was very little knowledge that pregnancy lasted nine months... even among the 'learned'. Old pregnancy manuals talk about pregnancies taking anywhere from a few months to many many months. Without ultrasound and HcG tests, there is very little indication a woman is pregant until she starts showing or feeling the baby (and even then, a new mother may not even notice until she's showing anyway).

As for fertility awareness, I don't believe the methods used prior to the modern day were super effective. Regardless, the knowledge was not present.

So I'll restate my claim. Up until the modern day, there was no such thing as trying for children. There were married couples engaging in socially sanctioned sex, which obviously leads to children. Or there were fornicators that we knew could have children, but was socially unacceptable, and few fornicators actually wanted children from their unions.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#217

Post by alphabettsy »

anon291 wrote: post #215
alphabettsy wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Restrictions of civil liberties in times of crisis aren’t new, see nearly every war. There’s a very significant difference between “the coming global lockdown” and global lockdowns have happened and might happen again under the right circumstances. There is no gaslighting, a term massively overused and often wrongly, in questioning and pointing out the paranoia in the former statement. The person I was replying to se…

Based on HN's demographics, i'm guessing the poster is American. In America, war (as defined by a loss in civil liberties) has not happened for over 80 years (true wars must be actually... declared by Congress). The various military engagements since then have not arisen to the same level of mobilization as an actual war. Nevertheless, COVID was not a war, and the impositions were not made after a majority vote of Co…

This won’t be productive. You’re making a strawman argument.

I said there are other circumstances where civil liberties were restricted and war was a common one, not that they were justified or anything else you’ve said. Civil liberties have been restricted in past pandemics as well.

I’m not going to debate the rest of what you said because it’s a response to an argument that I didn’t make, but it’s largely wrong.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#218

Post by anon291 »

alphabettsy wrote: post #217
anon291 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on HN's demographics, i'm guessing the poster is American. In America, war (as defined by a loss in civil liberties) has not happened for over 80 years (true wars must be actually... declared by Congress). The various military engagements since then have not arisen to the same level of mobilization as an actual war. Nevertheless, COVID was not a war, and the impositions were not made after a majority vote of Co…

This won’t be productive. You’re making a strawman argument. I said there are other circumstances where civil liberties were restricted and war was a common one, not that they were justified or anything else you’ve said. Civil liberties have been restricted in past pandemics as well. I’m not going to debate the rest of what you said because it’s a response to an argument that I didn’t make, but it’s largely wrong.

> Civil liberties have been restricted in past pandemics as well.

Not universally throughout the country, no. There has been none.

I can't take seriously anyone who claims the COVID response was anything other than unprecedented

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#219

Post by jfax »

anon291 wrote: post #218
alphabettsy wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This won’t be productive. You’re making a strawman argument. I said there are other circumstances where civil liberties were restricted and war was a common one, not that they were justified or anything else you’ve said. Civil liberties have been restricted in past pandemics as well. I’m not going to debate the rest of what you said because it’s a response to an argument that I didn’t make, but it’s largely wrong.

> Civil liberties have been restricted in past pandemics as well. Not universally throughout the country, no. There has been none. I can't take seriously anyone who claims the COVID response was anything other than unprecedented

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-pandemic-is...

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#220

Post by thefz »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #19
bell-cot wrote: post #6

Geezer* Perspective... [*If not in the USA, read "Old geezer". Credit: Aachen] Many varieties of "I really regret that I [did|didn't] do X when I was younger" occur in older humans. The stereotype of young men wanting to avoid all the work and commitment of setting down, marrying, and raising children is older than the pyramids. It is obviously not true of all young men, but there's very seldom been a shortage. Sure,…

> but a young man whose main motive for marriage is "so I don't regret not having kids when I'm old" I had a spit take here. When people say they regret not doing something, they are talking about regretting not everything that came along with doing that thing, not just avoiding the emotion of regret later in life. You could rephrase that into "a young man whose main motive for marriage is to have a loving, fulfillin…

> You could rephrase that into "a young man whose main motive for marriage is to have a loving, fulfilling family which they would prefer much more than staying single, esp later in life"

There is zero guarantee that a family will turn out right, let alone "loving, fulfilling" so this is just a loaded perspective of an issue that has nothing to do with your own world view.

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