‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#121

Post by em-bee » Tue, Sep 05, 2023, 1:34 PM UTC

defrost wrote: post #106

mcphage wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "we" already failed as a society by not sufficienty scrutinising the bulk of adoptions to ostensibly stable 'ideal' families in decades past That is correct, and what is trying to be corrected for now.

Sure .. just as long as crazy assumptons aren't made such as automatically flagging single men, single women or homosexual couples. The social history I'm most familiar with had a wide systemic issue with wealthy elite pillar of the community power couples adopting in "unwanted children" trained for menial servant roles as nannies and living breathing sex dolls .. not that you can accuse chief justices and their scal…

that sounds like something from movies. was that really that widespread?

screening is really a challenge. i mean the only thing you can really do is to analyze the motivation of why someone wants to adopt. but most people that you would not want to allow to adopt can go and have their own children anyways. when does preventing adoption turn into preventing to have children? or why should anyone who could have their own children be prevented from adopting?

short of a clear misaligned motivation or mental (and other serious) health issues anyone should be able to adopt.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#122

Post by anon291 » Tue, Sep 05, 2023, 1:35 PM UTC

ant_li0n wrote: post #38

basisword wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like most young men have always wanted to extend their youth and avoid the responsibility that family life would bring. However, until recently (with easy access to birth control, abortion, and proper education) this wasn't really possible. You would accidentally have a child and be forced into the lifestyle you were trying to avoid. And most of the time things worked out and you were forced into a situation t…

Wow yeah you really hit the nail on the head for me. My wife and I weren't trying to have kids but we weren't trying not to have kids either, if you get my drift. Looking back on it, if we had been "smart" about deciding when the right time would happen, we might never have had kids. Having kids is hands-down the best thing I've ever done but also the hardest. Not because of the amount of work, because it's really no…

The entire phrase 'trying for kids' is a neologism only enabled by birth control

For most of history, people just did what you did and had the results you did

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#123

Post by WXLCKNO » Tue, Sep 05, 2023, 1:35 PM UTC

basisword wrote: post #47

mlinhares wrote: post #17

I feel bad for the people that now want to have had children but didn't but as a father of two, if you didn't directly plan to have kids it might have been better that you didn't, kids take a lot of work, you have to be in the right place to do it. I used to be the person that said "yeah, go have kids" and now I'm "only do it if you're completely sure its what you want" because if you're not it's the children sufferi…

>> kids take a lot of work, you have to be in the right place to do it. I think it's a certain type of personality that believes this. I know somebody who gets worried for certain friends/family having children because they don't own their house or have high paid jobs. They have a laundry list of todo's (mostly financial) before they will even consider having children. It's almost condescending but I choose to see it…

I grew up poor and financial anxiety was real, I just couldn't fathom how people were living with it. I could barely tolerate it for myself, let alone bring kids into the world while being uncertain. It didn't feel like anything condescending, just a lack of understanding.

Now I'm very well off and could retire (fat fire equivalent) at 34 and I do want kids.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#124

Post by _V_ » Tue, Sep 05, 2023, 1:36 PM UTC

Tangurena2 wrote: post #119

I wanted to get married and have kids. Being rather effeminate, I don't attract the women who do want to have kids. I was about 40 when I finally realized that if she said she didn't want kids, she really meant it and it was not negotiable. I swore a vow: no more childless relationships. Being in no relationship is far better than being in the wrong relationship. When I tried to adopt, Florida's child welfare agency…

Wtf? O.O How can you be declared "legally gay"?

That sounds like something from a dystopian novel...

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#125

Post by Tade0 » Tue, Sep 05, 2023, 1:36 PM UTC

I was born around a decade before my country's fertility rate went below replacement and the social change this shift brought is staggering.

As a child I assumed most of my peers would go the usual route, so eventually start a family.

Being in my mid 30s now I'm the only one out of three siblings who is a parent and in my immediate social circle there are just two others - that's three out of at least twelve people.

The rest are either single, divorced or just childless, with no plan for starting a family in the foreseeable future(or ever) with maybe one exception, but if you asked me two years ago about that person's prospects I would have to say the were looking bleak.

I don't go around asking people why aren't they having children, but those who did tell me cite either finances or unwillingness to give up their current lives - sometimes both.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#126

Post by malfist » Tue, Sep 05, 2023, 1:39 PM UTC

Steltek wrote: post #108

malfist wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I agree. There's an easy solution for regret of not having kids, adoption. It'll be better for you and for the kid(s). There's no reason this childless person can't change his situation if he's capable of caring for a kid.

This person is 72 years old. Maybe people don't understand what parents mean by "kids take a lot of work". Take everything you do right now and double it. Maybe triple it, because it's harder when they don't know what they're doing at all and you need to teach as you go. All your household chores: double. Work: double (homework). Getting friggin' dressed in the morning: double. Wake up extra early too because school…

This person in the article might be too old to adopt, but that doesn't apply to everyone in his boat.

It also doesn't stop him from fostering.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#127

Post by scruple » Tue, Sep 05, 2023, 1:42 PM UTC

bsagdiyev wrote: post #25

corobo wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But a single man adopting is considered as pervert Is this evidence or assumption? Not challenging too hard just wondering if you've actually been called or treated like a perv or if it's something you assume will occur

Not sure by bt4u's comment is dead, but I've had that exact situation happen to me. Been accused of trying to steal a child while taking my son to the playground. It is an actual thing and it sucks.

I was at an amusement park recently. Took my daughter to go to the bathroom. I used a family stall. Someone knocked on the door and I said, "Occupied, we won't be much longer!" I heard a hushed whisper. A minute later, we're finishing up, washing our hands. A more aggressive knock, a man's voice, "Security. Open the door!"

This older woman with her 10-ish year old daughter had assumed that I, as a man, had no business being in a family stall. She went to get security to sort me out. Security asked me why I was using the family stall. I opened the door all of the way and pointed at my daughter (we have twin girls who are 4) who was drying her hands. The mom is aghast, "Where's her mother?" I scooped up my daughter and said, "I helped make her, too. Mom's busy. Mind your own business." and went back to my wife.

This is the most egregious example that I have but it's not at all an isolated event. Something in this direction has happened to me well over a dozen times in the last 4 years.

Another strong signal you can find: Many, maybe most, men's restrooms don't have a changing table. I've changed countless diapers while sitting on a toilet with one of my kids in my lap.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#128

Post by defrost » Tue, Sep 05, 2023, 1:44 PM UTC

em-bee wrote: post #121

defrost wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure .. just as long as crazy assumptons aren't made such as automatically flagging single men, single women or homosexual couples. The social history I'm most familiar with had a wide systemic issue with wealthy elite pillar of the community power couples adopting in "unwanted children" trained for menial servant roles as nannies and living breathing sex dolls .. not that you can accuse chief justices and their scal…

that sounds like something from movies. was that really that widespread? screening is really a challenge. i mean the only thing you can really do is to analyze the motivation of why someone wants to adopt. but most people that you would not want to allow to adopt can go and have their own children anyways. when does preventing adoption turn into preventing to have children? or why should anyone who could have their o…

Fairly sustained practiced from ~(1900 - 1965) and it's less common to met a girl (and yes, boys also) from that system that didn't experience some form of sexual abuse as a result.

https://psychology.org.au/inpsych/2014/august/dudgeon

Reported abuse levels by relatively small numbers of witnesses are here:

https://humanrights.gov.au/our-work/projects/bringing-them-h...

with typical stories and it'd take a few years to convey why those fall well short of reality and to go through stories of many who never made it to witness stands.

Yeah, there's been a movie or two made about parts of the stories: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lbnk8wSVMaM

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#129

Post by flangola7 » Tue, Sep 05, 2023, 1:44 PM UTC

_V_ wrote: post #118

antasvara wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know a few couples that don't have children by choice. In small talk, they are constantly being asked how their children are doing, do they have any children, are they planning on having kids, etc. Even when it's not meant to be judgmental, those kinds of questions can get old after a while. Then, add in the fact that the line of questioning often is judgmental and you'll frustrate even the most patient person. It…

Well that tends to happen. People usually talk the most about things that are a big part of their life. So if someone wants to connect with you, they will inevitably try in certain point of life to ask if you have kids. Nothing sinister here...

You're missing the point. Hopefully not willfully

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#130

Post by atlantic » Tue, Sep 05, 2023, 1:45 PM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #65

bell-cot wrote: post #6

Geezer* Perspective... [*If not in the USA, read "Old geezer". Credit: Aachen] Many varieties of "I really regret that I [did|didn't] do X when I was younger" occur in older humans. The stereotype of young men wanting to avoid all the work and commitment of setting down, marrying, and raising children is older than the pyramids. It is obviously not true of all young men, but there's very seldom been a shortage. Sure,…

Mixed feelings. On the one side, it feels like people stay "immature" for longer; instead of starting their careers in their teens and a family not long after, people stay in school until their mid-twenties. Then, what does it take to start a family? Stability. People need a stable income, a living wage, and a place they can call home. If people complain about birth rates, pay people a living wage when they enter the…

Not really. Starting a family is a leap in the dark. Always was, always will be. The only difference today is that people (may) have a lower risk tolerance, and a tendency to plan everything in advance. I had my first son with no house and no income. I just did the best I could, and things fell into place as I needed them.