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‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

theguardian.com

201–210 of 281 posts

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#201
post #40

Tough topic. I have some personal experience with it. The thing I struggle most with is the fact that I am often looked down upon (either consciously or subconsciously) by those that have "achieved" parenthood. Having children is an odd status symbol in Western society.

// The thing I struggle most with is the fact that I am often looked down upon

Much more likely, parents (and anyone else) don't think about you nearly as much as you think they do. Probably don't think of you at all. And they probably look at their kids as something they love and makes their live much richer, not a "status symbol."

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#202
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire phrase 'trying for kids' is a neologism only enabled by birth control For most of history, people just did what you did and had the results you did

Trying for kids means making sure you have sex at the right times of the month, something humanity has known about for millennia. Equally people not 'trying for kids' made sure to only have sex at the 'wrong' time of the month, again something humans have been doing for millennia.

How many millennia? Mary Beard in SPQR writes that the Romans had the right time of the month as wrong as they could.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#203
post #171
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that offending? There is some kind of drive to have kids/to reproduce. That drive makes biological sense. I'd say that majority of living things acts on it. If you personally don't feel that drive, there is nothing inherently bad with you and you certainly can have full and happy life. Maybe even happier because you can separate your decision and weigh pros/cons of having kids wihtout emotional involvement. Bu…

thank you. this may be true. obviously i can't emphasize what others feel for something that i don't feel. whether that is an anomaly is something i am rather curious about. but i can most certainly say that all my kids were a choice, one that i would make again, regardless of any troubles having them may have caused. as for offending, i guess i am generally bothered when people make assumptions about other peoples m…

If you are happy with your choices, it does not really matter what others (especially random people on the internet) think so I'd say just ignore what others think :)

Plus I'd say that to have kids (in a family sense) does not necessarily mean they have to be your biological kids as I think that the bonding/family aspect of it is much more important than simple reproduction. Atleast for the mental well being of a person that is.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Society used to be predictable and rational No. It really wasn’t. Read some history books. There was nothing uniquely great about the 80s-90s. Impending global lockdown? You might be well served from a lot less time online and more time with your fellow humans or nature.

> Impending global lockdown? You might be well served from a lot less time online and more time with your fellow humans or nature. Please stop trying to gaslight people. I too would have thought such a thing impossible in 2019/early 2020, but we saw that that is not beyond our leaders. Many people in the world have a lot of trauma from the government-imposed lockdowns and subsequent seizing of basic human freedoms. U…

Restrictions of civil liberties in times of crisis aren’t new, see nearly every war.

There’s a very significant difference between “the coming global lockdown” and global lockdowns have happened and might happen again under the right circumstances.

There is no gaslighting, a term massively overused and often wrongly, in questioning and pointing out the paranoia in the former statement.

The person I was replying to seems to have a very dim view of the current and future. They reference the increase in “deaths of despair” and I think that online negativity only provide further fuel.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who just had a kid, I agree. You don’t have to overthink it. At the end of the day all they need is a calorie surplus and shelter. That’s it. Everything else is a bonus. As a parent you can put as much or as little work into it as you like. Time is going to pass and they’ll grow older regardless. It’s not like a tech startup where you have to put work in or it’ll crash and burn.

Completely disagree. You do whatever with your own life. But kid is a 3rd person that you bring. If the life they are coming to is already bad, financially, legged behind from others in many ways, or any other, that's selfish. Forcing someone to terrible start without their consent. Parent should first make sure they are good to bring someone else and not to give a disadvantage start, playing gamble with life who did…

So to preface this, my spouse and I are trying for our first kid so I'm not a parent yet, but I've been reading a lot and talking to friends who are parents.

> If the life they are coming to is already bad, financially, legged behind from others in many ways, or any other, that's selfish. Forcing someone to terrible start without their consent. > > Parent should first make sure they are good to bring someone else and not to give a disadvantage start, playing gamble with life who did not ask.

Literally every aspect of raising a kid is a gamble, but there are degrees to these things. What counts as a "disadvantage" isn't always clear, let alone the degree to which it is actually harmful. Making a few mistakes or not doing things perfectly is probably fine. There is a huge problem with pregnancy and parenthood where controlled studies can't be done for ethical reasons, the number of confounding variables is about as extreme as it can get, and the outcomes you're measuring often aren't even well defined (what does it mean to have succeeded as a parent? What does it mean for someone to have a happy life?).

It's important to try to make your kids have a happy life, but there's a lot of disagreement on how exactly to do that. One factor that seems to have a huge effect is having parents who express their love for their kids and spend time with them. It's important for parents to take care of themselves and their relationship with their partner. One part of that is not burning yourself out trying to hyper-optimize things.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#206
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wtf? O.O How can you be declared "legally gay"? That sounds like something from a dystopian novel...

The attitude was that "no hetero would do that sort of thing." A similar attitude for race relations would be to use the "one drop rule" [0] against white-looking [1] supporters of civil rights for blacks (back in the 1950s & 1960s), that since no white would do that, I must have some black blood in my ancestry and therefore I'd be legally black. > In the United States, the “one-drop rule” — also known as hypodescent…

My genuine reaction to this was "holy shit! this cannot be real!".

After that I had to read your post carefully to notice that it has happened in 90s. But still, I was alive back then, it is not that long.

Thank you for this info, we still live very close to the Middle Age...

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely disagree. You do whatever with your own life. But kid is a 3rd person that you bring. If the life they are coming to is already bad, financially, legged behind from others in many ways, or any other, that's selfish. Forcing someone to terrible start without their consent. Parent should first make sure they are good to bring someone else and not to give a disadvantage start, playing gamble with life who did…

It is insane to me that people think otherwise. How callous can you be to bring a life into the world and think "i'm just gonna wing it" in this day and age. The kid didn't ask to be brought here, it is 100% under the responsibility and care of whoever decided to have it.

I'm not saying people shouldn't wing it, but some people clearly think they (or other parents) can control more things than are practical or healthy. You should try to be a responsible parent, but knowing how much you need to worry about individual things isn't easy. It's not practical to do everything various people say you should do. One expert will advise the opposite of what another does, and over times people flip flop back and forth. In the end I don't see how it couldn't involve some level of winging things.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up poor and financial anxiety was real, I just couldn't fathom how people were living with it. I could barely tolerate it for myself, let alone bring kids into the world while being uncertain. It didn't feel like anything condescending, just a lack of understanding. Now I'm very well off and could retire (fat fire equivalent) at 34 and I do want kids.

I grew up similarly and am also well off financially now too at 33. Yet, I can’t find a woman who would want to have kids with me. The market has changed. Looks is paramount - I worked so hard to be financially stable and didn’t realize that it wasn’t my parents financial situation that had fucked me over so badly in life - it was their dogshit genetics that made me ugly.

Sorry to hear that. The comment below does give good advice, presuming you're not an actual goblin and that you're somewhere around average height, you can put odds in your favor by staying fit, well dressed and well groomed. Lack of hair, get hair implants, etc. Get braces or dental work if needed.

The result is superficial but the confidence gains will be real and you'll feel better either way.

After that I would advise signing up to a rock climbing gym or something and getting out to meet girls in real life, in case your dating app profile still doesn't help by then.

I think most of all, let go of your hate towards yourself/your parents/your appearance. This kind of bitterness consumes you after a while and it will show in your personality.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah we're kinda over the traditional family thing here in Europe. I would bet two fathers taking their son to the playground would raise some eyebrows in the US too, depending on the area of course. Whereas here it wouldn't.

I think it depends on where you are in Europe. I had far more reaction doing childcare in Poland than I did in the US and Canada. Almost completely positive, though. "Your wife is so lucky, a Polish man would never change a diaper".

Oh ok, that surprises me, Poland has a reputation of being very strongly anti-LGBT (and Hungary too). Guess it depends on the area.

When I was in Ireland there were many people against single parents "Lone parents" they call them there, it was a real witch hunt in the media.

So yeah we get these things here but it tends to be localised.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#210

I'm surprised there's so many men that genuinely want kids. I've never had that desire, I know it's more commonplace in women. Most of my friends who have them were basically doing it for the wife even though they loved their kids when they appeared on the scene. But it was not something they would have chosen. But anyway good for them. I'm glad I never had any and I have no regrets.

> I know it's more commonplace in women. There are plenty of women who are perfectly happy without kids, too. And that doesn't mean those men and women don't like kids or don't have kids in their lives. It's nice to get some kid time. And it's nice to go home later and not have to deal with them. Or the inevitable ex spouses.

> There are plenty of women who are perfectly happy without kids, too.

I wish I'd find some :) For me it has generally been a breaking point in relations or at least a very contentious point.

However at this point I'm so old that with a partner of the same age it's simply not really relevant anymore. Either they have never had them, have had them and they grew up, or they just can't get them anymore.

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