Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 281 posts

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#161

Post by inerg »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #152
bluefirebrand wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Success as a parent is much more than just "my child is alive and getting older" Are they becoming a happy person? good, moral person? Do they contribute to society or are they a drain on society? Do you, the parent, have to bail them out of jail every other weekend? Don't neglect your kids, people. Please.

A child's peer group has more influence over those questions than parents do. It's no excuse to neglect your children, but society places far more blame on parents than is warranted IMO.

While the child's peer group does have the strong influence on a few of those questions, it's probably worth noting that as the parent you build the tools that allows the child to develop the peer group that allows for them to be happy.

The unfortunate reality is that this groundwork is laid from around 0-10. After that it's a lot harder to correct the mistakes and the influence then definitely falls much more under peers than the parents.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#162

Post by em-bee »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #140
anon291 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire phrase 'trying for kids' is a neologism only enabled by birth control For most of history, people just did what you did and had the results you did

On the contrary, "trying for kids" was accompanied by an elaborate ceremony to kick off the process. This big ceremony was often so successful that the kids would arrive 5 months after the ceremony!

one person can have a child in 9 months. so two people must be able to have a child in half that time. the math checks out.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#163

Post by sparrish »

10g1k wrote: post #27

Evolution. It's programmed into you, the drive to reproduce. And that's a good thing. You won't understand how important and amazing it is until you have your own kid. NOTHING is more important.

I'll agree the drive is within you but that it comes from our creator God.

Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth..."

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#164

Post by _V_ »

flangola7 wrote: post #129
_V_ wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that tends to happen. People usually talk the most about things that are a big part of their life. So if someone wants to connect with you, they will inevitably try in certain point of life to ask if you have kids. Nothing sinister here...

You're missing the point. Hopefully not willfully

I really genuinely don't see the point. Yeah, it gets old when people talk about kids and ask you about it (especially when you made a desicssion to not have them), but that does not hurt my feelings. Not in a way that I would have to go around telling them to "stop preaching" etc...

Everyone around me at around 28 years of age started having a kids and guess what: our coffee talks started to revolve around parenting quite a lot more...

Makes sense since it is literally the biggest experience/thing in life for them at the time. I don't care that much - I either join in or just wait a while for another topic.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#165

Post by FeloniousHam »

ant_li0n wrote: post #38
basisword wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like most young men have always wanted to extend their youth and avoid the responsibility that family life would bring. However, until recently (with easy access to birth control, abortion, and proper education) this wasn't really possible. You would accidentally have a child and be forced into the lifestyle you were trying to avoid. And most of the time things worked out and you were forced into a situation t…

Wow yeah you really hit the nail on the head for me. My wife and I weren't trying to have kids but we weren't trying not to have kids either, if you get my drift. Looking back on it, if we had been "smart" about deciding when the right time would happen, we might never have had kids. Having kids is hands-down the best thing I've ever done but also the hardest. Not because of the amount of work, because it's really no…

> It's more of the dramatically uncomfortable shift in perspective: Realizing I'm not the main character in this story

This! I was the first of our group to have kids, and I'd "the camera isn't on me anymore". I thought of Smallville where the Duke boy was just a background father-person.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#166

Post by inerg »

polski-g wrote: post #147
alphabettsy wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad parenting or neglectful often produces bad outcomes does it not? This is unfortunate to read. Of course everything doesn’t need to be planned, but food and shelter are the bare minimum.

Not really. The most meaningful outcome for a child's life is the mate selection of the parents. Parenting generally has no effect; see the letter sent to Maher as a really good synopsis: https://jaymans.wordpress.com/2011/11/16/taming-the-tiger-mo...

I'm not disagreeing with what you've linked said but it's pretty well documented that there are negative events that can lead to long term impacts on children. The letter you linked seems to glance over parents who are abusive, whether that is verbal, physical, or neglectful.

For those that want to dive in a little bit these are Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE). It's not an end all be all chance that you'll develop something with a long term impact but the more you experience the more likely you are to do so.

https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/aces/riskprotectivefa...

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#167

Post by _V_ »

em-bee wrote: post #133
_V_ wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it? I don't see anything patronising in there. It is just a statement. I don't think that people who cannot have children are seen as something less. This is just you wanting to be offended. And yes, in general there is almost nothing more important other than reproduction from the perspective of species. Nothing controversial about that either.

the offending part is that there should some kind of drive to have your own children or more specifically that the desire to have children is reduced to the need to reproduce. i have children because i love them and want to care for them. i would adopt children for the same reason. i felt no drive to have children be my own. i could not care less if it is me who reproduced instead of someone else. of course if humani…

Why is that offending? There is some kind of drive to have kids/to reproduce. That drive makes biological sense. I'd say that majority of living things acts on it.

If you personally don't feel that drive, there is nothing inherently bad with you and you certainly can have full and happy life. Maybe even happier because you can separate your decision and weigh pros/cons of having kids wihtout emotional involvement. But you are still probably a statistical anomaly. :)

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#168

Post by smugma »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #19
bell-cot wrote: post #6

Geezer* Perspective... [*If not in the USA, read "Old geezer". Credit: Aachen] Many varieties of "I really regret that I [did|didn't] do X when I was younger" occur in older humans. The stereotype of young men wanting to avoid all the work and commitment of setting down, marrying, and raising children is older than the pyramids. It is obviously not true of all young men, but there's very seldom been a shortage. Sure,…

> but a young man whose main motive for marriage is "so I don't regret not having kids when I'm old" I had a spit take here. When people say they regret not doing something, they are talking about regretting not everything that came along with doing that thing, not just avoiding the emotion of regret later in life. You could rephrase that into "a young man whose main motive for marriage is to have a loving, fulfillin…

“It’s better to regret something you have done than to regret something you haven’t done.”

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#169

Post by em-bee »

inerg wrote: post #161
bryanlarsen wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A child's peer group has more influence over those questions than parents do. It's no excuse to neglect your children, but society places far more blame on parents than is warranted IMO.

While the child's peer group does have the strong influence on a few of those questions, it's probably worth noting that as the parent you build the tools that allows the child to develop the peer group that allows for them to be happy. The unfortunate reality is that this groundwork is laid from around 0-10. After that it's a lot harder to correct the mistakes and the influence then definitely falls much more under…

exactly. i didn't have a peer group as a child. and my parents are the only ones responsible for that. i am not blaming them, because they couldn't do better, but most definitely their influence and making sure that i am in an environment where i can make friends is something they were responsible for.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#170

Post by birksherty »

xyzzy4747 wrote: post #69
basisword wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> kids take a lot of work, you have to be in the right place to do it. I think it's a certain type of personality that believes this. I know somebody who gets worried for certain friends/family having children because they don't own their house or have high paid jobs. They have a laundry list of todo's (mostly financial) before they will even consider having children. It's almost condescending but I choose to see it…

As someone who just had a kid, I agree. You don’t have to overthink it. At the end of the day all they need is a calorie surplus and shelter. That’s it. Everything else is a bonus. As a parent you can put as much or as little work into it as you like. Time is going to pass and they’ll grow older regardless. It’s not like a tech startup where you have to put work in or it’ll crash and burn.

Completely disagree. You do whatever with your own life. But kid is a 3rd person that you bring. If the life they are coming to is already bad, financially, legged behind from others in many ways, or any other, that's selfish. Forcing someone to terrible start without their consent.

Parent should first make sure they are good to bring someone else and not to give a disadvantage start, playing gamble with life who did not ask.

Post reply on HN