Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 281 posts

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#61

Post by tr888 »

_V_ wrote: post #52
tr888 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hate this attitude. It's a condescending and patronising attitude - that men who don't (or can't) have children are less. Are you really saying that absolutely nothing is more important than reproducing? For everyone, in every situation? I sincerely hope not.

Is it? I don't see anything patronising in there. It is just a statement. I don't think that people who cannot have children are seen as something less. This is just you wanting to be offended. And yes, in general there is almost nothing more important other than reproduction from the perspective of species. Nothing controversial about that either.

I'm not offended, thanks. I'm just saying that there is a life for everyone, and reproducing is not the most important thing for many. We're not talking objectively about the biology of the human species, really. We're talking about anthropology and what being a human means.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#62

Post by chongli »

mtreis86 wrote: post #5
dudul wrote: post #2

> this Game of Thrones genetic push felt by men to have children”. Literally no idea what this means.

They're talking legacy and heritage. “It’s the family name that lives on. It’s all that lives on. Not your honor, not your personal glory, family.” — Tywin Lannister

"La familia es todo (family is all)." -- Salamanca motto.

I find it funny how in popular fiction it's the villains who seem to care the most about family. Otherwise, family seems to be portrayed in a negative light these days.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#63

Post by bell-cot »

permo-w wrote: post #29
rcme wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is wanting to do X now so you don’t regret not doing X later not a valid reason for wanting to do X? I want to eat lunch now so I’m not hungry later. I want to study hard now so I don’t regret not studying later. Aren’t most motivations essentially based on the possibility of future regret?

depends on your personality. for me, most of my motivations are based on what I feel like doing right now

THIS. People vary greatly in how strongly they weight the present vs. the future when they are making decisions. (And they're often darn inconsistent - being (say) very-long-term in planning their career, yet reckless about their health and safety.)

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#64

Post by MattPalmer1086 »

jokoon wrote: post #44

I'm 38, and I'm socially unable to meet women outside of online dating, I've had enough girlfriend and a long, 8 years relationship (she did not want kids). I don't really understand that social norm of having kids. I can understand sexual desire, but is there really a "desire to have kids"? Is having kids really some kind of moral imperative to "continue the human species"? Anyway, women have high standards, which i…

You can certainly desire to have kids, just like you can desire to have anything.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#65

Post by Cthulhu_ »

bell-cot wrote: post #6

Geezer* Perspective... [*If not in the USA, read "Old geezer". Credit: Aachen] Many varieties of "I really regret that I [did|didn't] do X when I was younger" occur in older humans. The stereotype of young men wanting to avoid all the work and commitment of setting down, marrying, and raising children is older than the pyramids. It is obviously not true of all young men, but there's very seldom been a shortage. Sure,…

Mixed feelings.

On the one side, it feels like people stay "immature" for longer; instead of starting their careers in their teens and a family not long after, people stay in school until their mid-twenties.

Then, what does it take to start a family? Stability. People need a stable income, a living wage, and a place they can call home.

If people complain about birth rates, pay people a living wage when they enter the workforce, and make it so people can afford to own a house (that they can live in for the rest of their life if they want to) from their mid twenties onwards on a single income.

People can't build a future now, because they worry about the next paycheck.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#66

Post by fra »

jokoon wrote: post #44

I'm 38, and I'm socially unable to meet women outside of online dating, I've had enough girlfriend and a long, 8 years relationship (she did not want kids). I don't really understand that social norm of having kids. I can understand sexual desire, but is there really a "desire to have kids"? Is having kids really some kind of moral imperative to "continue the human species"? Anyway, women have high standards, which i…

> I can understand sexual desire, but is there really a "desire to have kids"?

Yes, unequivocally there is such a thing as a "desire to have kids". Speaking for myself and many others I know!

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#67

Post by mbg721 »

ant_li0n wrote: post #38
basisword wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like most young men have always wanted to extend their youth and avoid the responsibility that family life would bring. However, until recently (with easy access to birth control, abortion, and proper education) this wasn't really possible. You would accidentally have a child and be forced into the lifestyle you were trying to avoid. And most of the time things worked out and you were forced into a situation t…

Wow yeah you really hit the nail on the head for me. My wife and I weren't trying to have kids but we weren't trying not to have kids either, if you get my drift. Looking back on it, if we had been "smart" about deciding when the right time would happen, we might never have had kids. Having kids is hands-down the best thing I've ever done but also the hardest. Not because of the amount of work, because it's really no…

The thing that struck me about having kids is that no individual task is all that hard, but there are a lot of them and you have to be available at all times. It can wear you down like any other on-call situation.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#68

Post by tr888 »

bitsandbooks wrote: post #48

We ought to be converting these people into adoptive or foster parents.

I somewhat agree, but 2 things:

- Adoption/fostering isn't actually a guarantee for all people. It's a challenging process that may or may not be successful.

- Just some gentle advice: mentioning "just adopt" to people suffering infertility is considered a faux-pas. It's best to avoid it.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#69

Post by xyzzy4747 »

basisword wrote: post #47
mlinhares wrote: post #17

I feel bad for the people that now want to have had children but didn't but as a father of two, if you didn't directly plan to have kids it might have been better that you didn't, kids take a lot of work, you have to be in the right place to do it. I used to be the person that said "yeah, go have kids" and now I'm "only do it if you're completely sure its what you want" because if you're not it's the children sufferi…

>> kids take a lot of work, you have to be in the right place to do it. I think it's a certain type of personality that believes this. I know somebody who gets worried for certain friends/family having children because they don't own their house or have high paid jobs. They have a laundry list of todo's (mostly financial) before they will even consider having children. It's almost condescending but I choose to see it…

As someone who just had a kid, I agree. You don’t have to overthink it. At the end of the day all they need is a calorie surplus and shelter. That’s it. Everything else is a bonus. As a parent you can put as much or as little work into it as you like. Time is going to pass and they’ll grow older regardless. It’s not like a tech startup where you have to put work in or it’ll crash and burn.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#70

Post by barrysteve »

And all the warning they get is a random guardian article in the slew of media rain.

This society is completely broken. My craving to return to the 1980s and 1990s is just getting worse and worse.

We replaced so many functioning structures with an ocean of mirages.

I legitmately have not seen an adult man who looks and acts like an authority figure should, in about fifteen years.

I literally cannot take 90% of 'authorities' seriously. Their advice is self-serving and just telling the truth about circumnstances is enough to end the conversation and burn out emotions, never mind getting to the point in the conversation where an informed decision could be made.

Discipline in the management structure used to be the backbone of society, now every level is scheming for themselves, and breaking the structure to get there. Or just low effort incompetence, understandable in the chaos. Or just friends killing time, promoting friends and family.

Everybody's here today, gone tomorrow in commitment and planning and structuring some jobs is a chaotic nightmare.

People keep leaning harder and harder into tech to ASSERT authority. Not a gosh darn soul in this country actually believes or cares what their phones/scheduling system tells them. The apps update every few weeks anyway and we can all sense the impending global lockdown coming, so why bother.

And in this chaos we have to commit to literally any woman, have kids and a house and gamble our lives on the churn.

Society used to be predictable and rational, now the media has gone to the dogs, the 'adults in the room' are not believable and are pushing more tech tyranny.

There's literally nobody to turn to. Grifts and false hope is virulent. Churches just want you to do their thing, with zero practical application in the short term. The media is a total clusterF.

The compassion from the comfortable families is a dismissive band aid, so they can go back to ignoring reality.

If I were younger I'd join the military just for the permenant sense of order.

Now don't mind me, I'm going to waste another 6 months battling C++ without anything to show for it, because solving some small tech problems is my best bet at keeping my sanity and providing a sense of achievement, that I did something that was believable and good, before I lost it all to government and time.

All people want from a regular joe, is to control him. Literally everyone and their dog gives their condemnation and their gut reaction as 'advice'. Then if you don't immediately comply, it's taken as sufficient reason to ignore you.

Life hurts and then you die. Where is the children in that?

waves my countries' flag sardonically

Post reply on HN