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"Lighten up"

therealkatie.net

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Re: "Lighten up"

#101

Post by msbarnett »

blake8086 wrote: post #17
kcunning wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Awareness. 2. You'd be shocked how much better my environment would be if, when I expressed concern about something, I was not told to 'lighten up', but if my concern was treated as valid.

I feel that awareness will be difficult. I think the people who pay attention to things like your blog post are the people who are already sympathetic. It's like if you wrote a guide about "How To Not Be An Asshole", assholes would probably not read it.

It's not about changing the asshole's behavior, per se, it's about changing the response of Jim, random third party in the meeting where Bob says he's sitting across from Katie so he can ogle her tits from:

"Katie, lighten up"

to

"Bob, stop being such a creepy fuck. It's unacceptable".

Re: "Lighten up"

#102

Post by psykotic »

LaGrange wrote: post #80
huckfinnaafb wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ridiculous. Coming to your partner's defense is not a matter of gender, but one of loyalty. Reverse the genders in this case and the threat still applies.

Only thing is, this would not be coming to partners defense, but pointless chest-thumping. Now, I think I know what he meant by writing that, and I doubt he'd actually do anything other than being nice to her and supporting her in whatever she chooses to do with it, but the expression still matters. The brainwashing gets us all. It's sad when it gets us while we're trying to be supportive. The proper expression is "I…

> "I will respond to this by aggressive behavior not that much unlike what the other dude did"

He showed a naked picture of himself to her in a situation where the default balance of power was firmly in his favor. An interviewer blotting himself (if only using a photograph) in front of a potential peer or subordinate is an act of sexual aggression if I ever saw one, and you are claiming some sort of moral equivalence with reacting aggressively to it? You cannot be serious.

Re: "Lighten up"

#103

Post by rmc »

crusso wrote: post #20
kcunning wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm actually a fairly baudy person. I've made sailors blush. I don't mind joking around at all. What irks me is when someone does something sexist, and I do speak up about it... and I'm told to 'lighten up'. If it was important enough for me to say something, then at least acknowledge that. Most of my co-workers are awesome. They'd never dream of making the dress comment, or tell me to go get their coffee. But it doe…

Fair enough. Is the place large enough to have a separate HR department? It's one thing to joke around, but another to make unwanted sexist comments. I've never known any HR folks who put up with the smallest bit of it. It's their job to get righteously pissed off at that kind of behavior.

It's one thing to joke around, but another to make unwanted sexist comments

A lot of confusion and conflict can happen when 1 person things a thing is a joke, and another person thinks the same thing is a sexist comment. This can be where the "lighten up" response can come from.

Re: "Lighten up"

#105

Post by substars »

[deleted] wrote: post #75
tptacek wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment makes you sound like you're 12 years old. The goal is not to get back at people. The onus isn't on her. She's the victim, not the problem.

[deleted]

What is the minimum level of disrespect or abuse one must experience to be worthy of discussion?

Re: "Lighten up"

#106

Post by b_emery »

As an employee of the University of California, I'm compelled to take annual sexual harassment training, that is, how to identify situations and behaviors that constitute sexual harassment as it has been legally defined. A lot of what was mentioned in the post and in the comments here would be regarded as reportable offenses, if not prosecutable offenses. People should know the law - this stuff can get you in real trouble. If you're in California, this might apply [pdf]:

http://atyourservice.ucop.edu/employees/policies_employee_la...

If you're not in California, but you're running a business you may find it quite interesting, eg:

Sexual harassment is unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature, when submission to or rejection of this conduct explicitly or implicitly affects a person’s employment or education, unreasonably interferes with a person’s work or educational performance, or creates an intimidating, hostile or offensive working or learning environment. ... This policy covers unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature.

Re: "Lighten up"

#107

Post by kitsune_ »

I hate those "lighten up" comments. Bullies just love that phrase. Put someone down and when they push back, "ah gee, lighten up, it was just a joke". It's extremely cowardly and disgusting and reminiscent of prepubescent school yard antics. Many women have to put up with such shit on a regular basis.

Re: "Lighten up"

#108

Post by maco »

kcunning wrote: post #63
alanh wrote: post #43

Thanks for this. I’m going to be more aware of these kind of things and more watchful to make sure I don’t contribute to this myself and more observant of those around me. Now, I have a question for the women here — sometimes I’ll hear a woman make the joke about belonging in the kitchen. Do you have insight into why that might happen sometimes and what the best sort of response would be?

Heh. I have a blog post about that as well! Basically, some women do really believe in 'traditional' roles for women. Maybe they've benefited from the current situation. Maybe it's part of their upbringing. If that's why they're making the comment, feel free to call them out on it. If they're doing it to be ironic (I know I have), then you can probably shrug it off. Many of us have learned to be subversively snarky t…

I like to non-verbally snark, by breaking people's brains.

I wear long skirts all the time, and sometimes I cover my hair. So I must be traditionalist/conservative, right? No, I just don't like how jeans are all about objectifying my butt and also never fit right. Some of my coverings keep my hair nicely off the back of my neck in the summer, others let me have pretty flowy fabric (I like textiles). I'm pretty clearly not a booth babe with that skirt though, so maybe I'm a girlfriend? Oh wait, the shirt I'm wearing is from an Ubuntu Developer Summit. Hmm... Wait, but I'm knitting, back to the girlfriend idea, maybe? Oh nevermind, this is too confusing, how about talking instead of trying to guess?

I have noticed, btw, that a large portion of female developers knit or crochet. Maybe it's because knitting & crochet patterns look a lot like code, complete with for-loops and while-loops. Also, ya know, make a scarf, make a website, make a pie...make stuff!

Re: "Lighten up"

#109

Post by wilmoore »

duaneb wrote: post #3

While I sympathize for the person, I can't help but wonder if it was the right decision. She's going to be facing the same problems in every male-dominated industry; is it worth giving up the thing you love? I can't answer, obviously, because I'm male, and in a different position besides that. Thankfully, I've never run into this in real life. I've always worked with coworkers respectful of each other, and I can't im…

While I agree that leaving the industry might not be the best choice (luckily she did not), we do need to realize that even though this happens in many other industries, IT is one with relatively few women in the first place so think of how lonely it could feel to be singled out and feel like nobody is on your side.

Until you feel that, you might empathize, but you can't relate. The easiest way to deal is to think about how you'd want your mother, sister, or spouse to be treated. If you wouldn't like it for them, don't ever stand by and do nothing when this stuff happens. Also, about losing a job or business...if you put a job or a client ahead of your ethics, it's time to do some self refactoring.

Re: "Lighten up"

#110

Post by yequalsx »

stcredzero wrote: post #60
bh42222 wrote: post #37

I can't seem to find a study which showed that while only %3 of men ever make such comments, women involved in our community experience this a steady stream of subtle harassment. And the sad fact is that this is due to the lopsided share of men to women. If we had a 50/50 split some women would never hear such comments, some would hear then extremely rarely, while the percentage of men making them would stay the same…

I can't seem to find a study which showed that while only %3 of men ever make such comments, women involved in our community experience this a steady stream of subtle harassment. And the sad fact is that this is due to the lopsided share of men to women. This reminds me of growing up Asian in rural northern Appalachia. It also reminds me of discussions I've heard on local African American radio talk shows. There's th…

Thank you for your comments. What you said about subtle, constant pressure made a lot of sense to me and put things into perspective. I have a better understanding now.
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