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Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

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Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#161

Post by kibwen »

djbusby wrote: post #121
extraduder_ire wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would be nice, but the economics would be kinda wack with how much of the cost is in the battery pack. Especially when companies like tesla put the same pack in all their cars and determine your "capacity" in software. I'd imagine that would either change, or people would start buying up the lowest-cost EVs just to pull the battery out of them (like "shucking" external drives) and resell all the other parts.

Or just buying batteries directly from the Kit company or compatible suppliers.

Reminder that, at the end of the day, Teslas are just running on ordinary standardized li-ion 18650 cells packaged up in a proprietary housing.

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#162

Post by nrp »

adolph wrote: post #18
echelon wrote: post #4

Since EVs are mechanically simpler, I'd really like to see a return to kit cars. Perhaps you could buy the preassembled chassis and modify the rest of the car as you'd like. Maybe you could tear down the whole thing and rebuild it. In theory this should be super accessible. You might see a whole community spring up over it. It's potentially a huge market ranging from teenagers to retirees. Lots of people love cars an…

Framework car

We have a few other categories to fix first.

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#163

Post by pixl97 »

kibwen wrote: post #158
serf wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be great, but personally I think that modern chain-of-liability concerns would probably make the premise very difficult to work out. An EV burns down. The chassis maker points its fingers at what they claim were low quality electronics used, the electronics manufacturer points its fingers at the sharp edges left on the chassis that could create chafe points. Technical interoperability too aside from standard…

It's already legal in the US to build your own car from scratch. There are certain minimum safety requirements (headlights, windshields, seatbelts, bumpers), but less than you may think (e.g. doors are not required, the steering wheel doesn't have to be on the left). The NHTSA isn't going to ask you to prove your car's crash-safety, all you need to do is pass inspection in your state.

It's legal to build it, but at least in Texas it's not legal to drive it on the highway as you won't be able to get registration.

https://ftp.txdmv.gov/pub/txdot-info/vtr/title_manual_book_4...

>On page 376, under 'Eligibility for Title' it says "Homemade vehicles are not eligible for title or registration. Homemade vehicles are described as vehicles that were not previously manufactured by a NHTSA approved manufacturer..."

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#164

Post by tomcam »

ryandrake wrote: post #154
tomcam wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Love it. Want it. In the USA, the manufacturers would probably be sued out of existence when someone got killed or maimed in one, no matter whose fault it was.

Yet, in aviation, we have the "experimental, amateur built" (or, E/AB) category of homebuilt aircraft which is going strong and honestly I'd say that most of the technical innovation happening in light aircraft is happening in the E/AB category. There are thousands of homebuilt kit aircraft safely flying in the sky above you right now. The difference, of course, is that for obvious reasons, aviation has developed a p…

I thought of that. But happened to the scores of aviation manufacturers here in the 1950s?

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#165

Post by revscat »

starbase wrote: post #85
marak830 wrote: post #29

I'm sorry I have seen the thread leads, and I cannot agree with them and think the replies do not get enough notice. Right to repair should be a full set of instructions for "everything" are available. That's it. Give the full specs for everything. If it's code reliant(which wtf), what does it require to work? That's. Fucking. It. We give you rules to say peeps cannot sell what you made, you make it so we can repair…

> Right to repair should be a full set of instructions for "everything" Tesla provides that (and more) for free: • Service Manual, Parts Manual, and Body Repair • Tooling Catalog and Wiring Diagrams • Service Bulletins • Labor Codes and Times • Service Mode Diagnostic Software (on the touchscreen)

Where? I found press releases stating some of this, but none of the actual docs/software.

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#166

Post by pixl97 »

forgottenlogin9 wrote: post #135
sinistersnare wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we no longer have that right. We don't live under capitalism but 'necrocapitalism' that only gives rights to those in the in-group. We must fight for our rights now, they have been alienated from us.

Where do your rights begin and another’s end? If they wish to build a product in a way that you dislike, does it not impede their rights for you to inflict your will on them against their wishes?

>Where do your rights begin and another’s end?

This idea of a nice binary black and white cutoff for rights does not, and has not ever existed. This really is an absurdist American viewpoint. Let's make an example

"it's my legal right to pour a cup of water out on my property"

And, no one would really disagree with that.

"So I'm going to do it with a million cups of water all at once"

In which a flood happens destroying others property..., then we would see that the measure of ones actions is the consequences to others. If you make a car for yourself, go ahead and build it how you want. If you are making a mass produced product it's no longer about you or your rights. It's a superposition of your rights, the buyers rights, and the 'publics' rights as you dispose of that product.

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#167

Post by adolph »

nrp wrote: post #162
adolph wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Framework car

We have a few other categories to fix first.

Who’s to say what comes first? Even if one thinks other things as being more important to fix, fixing less important things builds the ability to fix other thing.

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#168

Post by michaelmrose »

tegmark wrote: post #35
echelon wrote: post #4

Since EVs are mechanically simpler, I'd really like to see a return to kit cars. Perhaps you could buy the preassembled chassis and modify the rest of the car as you'd like. Maybe you could tear down the whole thing and rebuild it. In theory this should be super accessible. You might see a whole community spring up over it. It's potentially a huge market ranging from teenagers to retirees. Lots of people love cars an…

this is the ignorance that drives these silly headlines. building these things is very hard. theres all kinds of crazy solvents and adhesives. the pack is structural. the product that tesla builds is fundamentally not well suited to repair or modification and tesla isnt under any obligation, on any level, to prioritize people who like to imagine they could repair or build a tesla over building the most excellent and…

What does earned the right to do what they want even mean. Why ought a society with pragmatic concerns ever concede those concerns based on a defective moral model where a party by doing some good somehow earns the right for society to somehow to put aside the needs of 338 million for the benefit of a dozen assholes in a boardroom.

This is a privilege that in a decent society ought not be available at any price.

It's silly to say that they are under no obligation when what we are talking about with right to repair is literally whether we ought to create such an obligation.

If you disagree you must explain why such an obligation is a net negative for the millions not the few.

I await your argument to that effect.

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#169

Post by lelanthran »

blamazon wrote: post #11
omgJustTest wrote: post #2

You can’t even jump another car with your Tesla, let alone do repairs.

Small nit: I can 'jump' (read: charge the battery of) other cars with my model X, as long as the other car is an ICE car. In the frunk there is a panel that pops off and underneath there are (unlabeled) 12V and ground terminals that I can put jumper cables on. However, I have had to get my car towed a mile to a charging station before, I really deeply wish I could have received a jump then.

> Small nit: I can 'jump' (read: charge the battery of) other cars with my model X, as long as the other car is an ICE car. In the frunk there is a panel that pops off and underneath there are (unlabeled) 12V and ground terminals that I can put jumper cables on.

"Jump" isn't the same as "charging the battery" of other cars.

You can charge a 12v car battery with as little as 4A if you're willing to wait. Jump starting requires between 45 and 60A, minimum. For a larger car engine, you're looking at 80A-100A, or even more.

I don't think that the EV 12v terminals are able to provide that sort of current; I think those terminals are provided so that normal camping equipment (lights, winch, things like that) can be powered.

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#170

Post by giobox »

extraduder_ire wrote: post #7
echelon wrote: post #4

Since EVs are mechanically simpler, I'd really like to see a return to kit cars. Perhaps you could buy the preassembled chassis and modify the rest of the car as you'd like. Maybe you could tear down the whole thing and rebuild it. In theory this should be super accessible. You might see a whole community spring up over it. It's potentially a huge market ranging from teenagers to retirees. Lots of people love cars an…

Would be nice, but the economics would be kinda wack with how much of the cost is in the battery pack. Especially when companies like tesla put the same pack in all their cars and determine your "capacity" in software. I'd imagine that would either change, or people would start buying up the lowest-cost EVs just to pull the battery out of them (like "shucking" external drives) and resell all the other parts.

> Especially when companies like tesla put the same pack in all their cars and determine your "capacity" in software.

This is an enormously exaggerated statement, bordering on entirely false. Yes, the company has done this from time to time, including on some current Model S/X models, but the vast, vast majority of Tesla cars sold (the 3/Y) almost always have a different sized battery pack in reality, not just in software (~50kwh or ~75kwh - there is genuinely ~1/3 less cells in the 50kwh cars almost always).

The Model S/X sell in very tiny volumes, relative to the 3/Y too. There absolutely is not the same pack in "all their cars". Even the type of cells used varies between model packs, typically 2170/4680 in the 3 or Y, 18650s in the S/X. I think there are even some BYD blade batteries in some European Y variants, but I'm not as familiar with the German or China made cars.

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