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Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

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Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#151

Post by serf »

echelon wrote: post #4

Since EVs are mechanically simpler, I'd really like to see a return to kit cars. Perhaps you could buy the preassembled chassis and modify the rest of the car as you'd like. Maybe you could tear down the whole thing and rebuild it. In theory this should be super accessible. You might see a whole community spring up over it. It's potentially a huge market ranging from teenagers to retirees. Lots of people love cars an…

It would be great, but personally I think that modern chain-of-liability concerns would probably make the premise very difficult to work out.

An EV burns down. The chassis maker points its fingers at what they claim were low quality electronics used, the electronics manufacturer points its fingers at the sharp edges left on the chassis that could create chafe points.

Technical interoperability too aside from standards; in a collision it's difficult to model/simulate/test a car that may have 20 different motor options, placement options, dozens of batteries, etc. They'll all fail differently, how do we regulate that kind of safety? I'd love for it to work.

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#152

Post by ceejayoz »

josefx wrote: post #147
ceejayoz wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except this Android can mow down a farmers market full of people if you get things wrong.

So can any vehicle that runs without software.

Not at scale.

You could perform phone phreaking in the 1960s, but a million phones in a botnet provides different challenges even if both are technically just a compromised phone.

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#153

Post by circuit10 »

forgottenlogin9 wrote: post #135
sinistersnare wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we no longer have that right. We don't live under capitalism but 'necrocapitalism' that only gives rights to those in the in-group. We must fight for our rights now, they have been alienated from us.

Where do your rights begin and another’s end? If they wish to build a product in a way that you dislike, does it not impede their rights for you to inflict your will on them against their wishes?

There should be limits to what companies are allowed to do in order to stop user hostile behaviour. It’s reasonable to say that if you want to sell things as a company you should have to take some basic steps like this

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#154

Post by ryandrake »

tomcam wrote: post #139
echelon wrote: post #4

Since EVs are mechanically simpler, I'd really like to see a return to kit cars. Perhaps you could buy the preassembled chassis and modify the rest of the car as you'd like. Maybe you could tear down the whole thing and rebuild it. In theory this should be super accessible. You might see a whole community spring up over it. It's potentially a huge market ranging from teenagers to retirees. Lots of people love cars an…

Love it. Want it. In the USA, the manufacturers would probably be sued out of existence when someone got killed or maimed in one, no matter whose fault it was.

Yet, in aviation, we have the "experimental, amateur built" (or, E/AB) category of homebuilt aircraft which is going strong and honestly I'd say that most of the technical innovation happening in light aircraft is happening in the E/AB category. There are thousands of homebuilt kit aircraft safely flying in the sky above you right now.

The difference, of course, is that for obvious reasons, aviation has developed a pervasive culture of safety and rigorous root-cause analysis whenever an accident happens, and deadly crashes frequently result in regulatory corrective action. If car accidents were as rare as aircraft accidents, the NTSB brought a team of investigators whenever one happened, and the results of that investigation led to stricter laws and enforcement, we'd probably be OK with kit cars, too.

The sad truth about automotive is that crashes are so routine that police won't even get out of bed unless there are injuries. And, there is basically no penalty for negligence that leads to a car "accident". It's almost impossible in the USA to lose your driver's license, even after dozens of repeated DUIs. Totally different cultures.

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#155

Post by euroderf »

blamazon wrote: post #23
Retric wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the exact use case where solar roofs on EV’s become very useful. However you can “jump” EV’s, supply power to their 12v system and then charge off of another cars 120v plug, or a portable generator etc.

Similarly, I've always thought it's a no brainer for any ICE car to have a solar roof. At a minimum it can keep a 12v battery from dying over long parking durations or high parasitic drain, and at best it could like, keep a container refrigerated or something.

or run a small ventilation fan in the summer.

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#156

Post by c-cube »

forgottenlogin9 wrote: post #135
sinistersnare wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we no longer have that right. We don't live under capitalism but 'necrocapitalism' that only gives rights to those in the in-group. We must fight for our rights now, they have been alienated from us.

Where do your rights begin and another’s end? If they wish to build a product in a way that you dislike, does it not impede their rights for you to inflict your will on them against their wishes?

Rights to impose your will about something, should end at the point where you sell this thing to someone else. That's how it should be. Sadly a lot of companies are trying to rent rather than sell (see: ebooks, anything as a service, etc.) because this way they don't lose control.

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#157

Post by AnthonyMouse »

ceejayoz wrote: post #149
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is another reason right to repair is so important, because carmakers can go out of business without all their cars ceasing to to exist. Someone finds an exploitable bug in a million cars after the only systems with the documentation and signing keys have been wiped and sold at auction, and what then?

That situation calls for an entirely separate set of legislation.

It calls for the ability of the general public to be able to repair their vehicles, so that anyone with such a vehicle can fix such problems.

What alternative would you even propose? The only entity with the ability to feasibly fix the bug is defunct and bankrupt, leaving them both judgment proof and with no resources to develop a patch. The only people with the incentive to spend resources fixing it are the people who own the vehicles. So the owners need the ability to repair their vehicles.

Which you can solve by just doing that to begin with, requiring no separate legislation.

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#158

Post by kibwen »

serf wrote: post #151
echelon wrote: post #4

Since EVs are mechanically simpler, I'd really like to see a return to kit cars. Perhaps you could buy the preassembled chassis and modify the rest of the car as you'd like. Maybe you could tear down the whole thing and rebuild it. In theory this should be super accessible. You might see a whole community spring up over it. It's potentially a huge market ranging from teenagers to retirees. Lots of people love cars an…

It would be great, but personally I think that modern chain-of-liability concerns would probably make the premise very difficult to work out. An EV burns down. The chassis maker points its fingers at what they claim were low quality electronics used, the electronics manufacturer points its fingers at the sharp edges left on the chassis that could create chafe points. Technical interoperability too aside from standard…

It's already legal in the US to build your own car from scratch. There are certain minimum safety requirements (headlights, windshields, seatbelts, bumpers), but less than you may think (e.g. doors are not required, the steering wheel doesn't have to be on the left). The NHTSA isn't going to ask you to prove your car's crash-safety, all you need to do is pass inspection in your state.

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#159

Post by Fluorescence »

anvuong wrote: post #146
Fluorescence wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found the JerryRigEverything project converting an ex-military hummer to an EV interesting despite not really being into cars/evs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxkPuEmIX4U&list=PL0vZL9uwyf... Despite the untold expense and full on car workshop... it felt very accessible and possible. Ridiculous hubris on my part obviously hah! I doubt I could change a tire on humvee without help.

I'm not sure how this is accessible, the drive-shaft is entirely customly designed and customly built to handle the torque. That's not even mentioning the 3D design software and laser cutting for the motor mount. This feels simple because he already has everything planned very well and it's a year long endeavour compactified into short youtube videos.

Heh, of course, I'm just taking the mickey out of myself. It avoids the car things that make me I'm know out of my depth: carburettors, gearboxes, firing patterns and such. Those come from a mysterious world I have no experience with.

If imagining a kit car then you won't be worrying about the custom designed elements you highlight.

Re: Tesla, Rivian Put on Fake Show of Support for ‘Right to Repair’

#160

Post by more_corn »

echelon wrote: post #4

Since EVs are mechanically simpler, I'd really like to see a return to kit cars. Perhaps you could buy the preassembled chassis and modify the rest of the car as you'd like. Maybe you could tear down the whole thing and rebuild it. In theory this should be super accessible. You might see a whole community spring up over it. It's potentially a huge market ranging from teenagers to retirees. Lots of people love cars an…

Problem is the battery packs. These kits need batteries and the best and cheapest batteries come out of wrecked teslas. If Tesla is allowed to continue locking down their batteries behind proprietary battery controllers the parts aren’t parts they’re intellectual property which Tesla can turn off at their convenience. And it’s super convenient for them to render parts unusable in the secondary market.
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